My teen daughter has burst out crying and gone upstairs because we were discussing Maya Forstater

[Bryonyshcmyony]

It came up on the news and I said something like surely its obvious that biological sex is real. Gender identity isn't the same as biological sex. She said people on tiktok say that there is a chromosomal spectrum. I said if someone has a chromosomal abnormality that's not proof that biological sex doesn't exist. Then she cried, said how frustrated I make her and just wants to live in a world where transpeople are accepted for who they are and its not her job to educate me as - and I quote - an ignorant old person.

I'm actually quite hurt. I don't want her to hate me! Obviously it's just a subject that is completely out of bounds. Anyone else faced similar?

She has a point op. I used to gender critical but I've looked into it a lot more.
You are not completely wrong.
She is not completely wrong.
But you're also going to push her away.

Be kind. Also being a teen is really hard.

What point?

Although I agree with your viewpoint, I also had a mother who wanted me to have the same opinions as her.
It is frustrating and upsetting as a teenager to have a mother who always thinks she is right and wants you to have the same views. Especially if she is more articulate than you.
Try and not be so focused on being right. Your daighter is not talking about taking hormones, it does not matter if she has a different view to you. Instead encourage critical thinking. And critical thinking does not mean agreeing with you.
It does mean giving her space to say what her views or what she has read and then maybe saying something like, that is interesting. I don't really agree with you, but I can see where you are coming from. Then don't say anything else unless she asks what you mean.
The way my mother was meant that when I was a young adult I found it hard to express any dissenting view in a group. Not something you want to encourage in a young woman.

There's a really good segment on Tuesday's PM programme on R4, they had an academic on who talked about why people don't seem to be able to debate or reason any more. The short answer was "It's social media" which kind of makes sense when today's teenagers grew up with SM as the norm (as opposed to us 40-something relics who grew up in the Dark Ages ). It's worth a listen.

Of course, teenagers have always had causes, but for my generation it was all a bit more Save the Whales

And I've not pushed her away, she's down stairs with me asking what's for lunch. I've said she'll have to make it herself as I'm going out to meet a friend (true)

Had a similar conversation with DD after Caitlyn Jenner appeared on I'm a Celeb and DD was banging on about what a wonderful woman she is.

I have a DS the same as the OP's DD - heading off to Uni this autumn. DS though is studying biology and totally sees the disconnect between what he's being taught in school and the concept of sex being on some sort of a spectrum. But he wouldn't dare voice those thoughts apart from at home, he knows the wokeness pervades everything.

I think that this is another one of those times in history where the whole of society is grappling with new concepts and having to work through new ideas. ...difficult for all of us but especially difficult for teens.

I am so dreading this. My DS is 8 and he asked me recently how would it even work for a person to change from a woman to a man. I explained that it doesn't biologically but that some people switch socially, sometimes with the help of medication and/or surgery. But that they all have varying degrees of success and can come with side-effects so it has to be very carefully considered. That some people are happier with the changes but that others can find they aren't so happy after all. Maybe because they didn't really want to change or maybe because they change isn't real enough for them. He said he said that made sense as he didn't think you could change and is glad he's happy to be a boy even if he is a bit sad that he won't be able to breastfeed.

Instead encourage critical thinking. And critical thinking does not mean agreeing with you

Yes, I understand that. I think the fact that one has gone to do PPE and she's off to do Philosophy might give you a clue that we do debate stuff intelligently in this house and have lots of time for other views. That's why crying and flouncing is unusual.

What’s that line about when I was 17 I thought my father was an ignorant old fool, but when I was 22 I was surprised at how much he’d learned in just five years…?

I have this with my own uni students. They won’t last long in the actual workplace before reality starts to kick in, and then they’ll realise some of the daftness of all of this.

@trancepants

I am so dreading this. My DS is 8 and he asked me recently how would it even work for a person to change from a woman to a man. I explained that it doesn't biologically but that some people switch socially, sometimes with the help of medication and/or surgery. But that they all have varying degrees of success and can come with side-effects so it has to be very carefully considered. That some people are happier with the changes but that others can find they aren't so happy after all. Maybe because they didn't really want to change or maybe because they change isn't real enough for them. He said he said that made sense as he didn't think you could change and is glad he's happy to be a boy even if he is a bit sad that he won't be able to breastfeed.

I think that explanation is exemplary, and so sweet that he wants to breastfeed! My youngest is a twin and when they were little he used to insist on being princess just like his sister. Other DD once got upset about not being able to grow a beard (after going to a Darwin exhibition). Just kids and their funny ways!

@godmum56

I think that this is another one of those times in history where the whole of society is grappling with new concepts and having to work through new ideas. ...difficult for all of us but especially difficult for teens.

Equally, there are plenty of times in history where societies have been gripped by silly ideas, and it’s taken a while to shake them out again. This looks more like one of those times.

So someting a court of law has decided is not right because someone said so on tiktok

i think she needs to grow up

I think I'm going against the consensus in this thread, but I actually don't agree the OP is handling it well, because it sounds like you're being just as simplistic as your daughter is.

It may not be welcome in this forum to say it, but there's a real debate to be had here.

I consider myself a diehard feminist, and I hate seeing how this battle is being played out between women, who have been and are badly discriminated against, and transwomen who are at least as badly (and in many cases probably more) discriminated against. Surely, we have more in common than what divides us?

Some of the language that the OP is using ('brainwashed') suggests that the OP doesn't acknowledge any room for debate and I can understand how the daughter finds this frustrating. I too want 'to live in a world where transpeople are accepted for who they are' and I think this impulse of hers is coming from a kind and positive place.

I won't go more into this or into my own background as somebody who has heavily used women-only spaces of all kinds, but I think there are worse life philosophies than 'be kind' and 'be open and welcoming to people who we perceive as not like ourselves'.

And for @AnnaMagnani (good name!) who said: And no, there is never any evidence that any of them has ever met an actual transwoman in real life. It's all posh women with luxury beliefs

I work in a university, and I've met a number of transwomen, though work or in private life, over a period of twenty years. And I don't see myself or my colleagues in the description "posh women with luxury beliefs"! :)

I think we are living in a ‘post truth’ era!

Tiktok is not the Go To place for facts and reality.

As parents it’s a really valuable lesson - a ‘teachable moment’ which is a bit of a cringy phrase. But social media can be extremely dangerous in spreading disinformation and emotional proganda - get her to watch the Social Network.

@Cassandraprobs

Don't want to sound patronising but they've grown up in a relatively safe world where mum deals with fighting the patriarchy, DV is something that happens to 'other people' and there's hope they'll be treated equally in the world, jobs, family etc. Once they actually start dealing with these things themselves without mum as the safety net they'll have to see it for what it is and the GC arguments will make more sense.

You’re right @Cassandraprobs, but it saddens me that they will only see this movement for what it is when they’ve been damaged by it. They are throwing away years of progress.

"Annoying" is the nicest way to describe it really

I have one teen who's trans-identifying, another who has called me a bigot and finds my stance "disappointing" I restrain myself from telling her that I'm disappointed in her cognitive dissonance.

The trans-identifying teen is actually open and amenable to discussion and knows she can't change her sex, but she wants to do everything available to outwardly resemble a man. We carry on talking and discussing to support each other.

The other teen won't discuss this issue any more with me. I hope Maya's case yesterday will enable a more tolerant attitude from my teen, as my belief in biology is now "legitimate".

I think it’s a generational thing to be honest. At least you have interesting discussions with your dd, although I wouldn’t expect my young adult kids to be on the same page as me all the time. They’re allowed their views and I mine, and sometimes, we learn something from listening to each other’s point of view. I wouldn’t dismiss her just because she’s a teenager.

My 14 yo told me I'm a transphobe and people like me are why gay people get persecuted when I asked her to define a woman
It is totally cognitive dissonance, you ask a question they can't answer without betraying a core belief (e.g. TWAW) and to deal with the discomfort they shout and run away. Hard though

I don’t discuss it with my teenage dd any more as we disagree - she’s drunk the TRA koolaid. It’s fucking annoying

Is this the first time you’ve had this kind of conversation? I’m not saying anyone is right or wrong in their thinking - but if you’re quick to get your point across without listening to her views that can cause a lot of frustration and upset. You both need to have your say and agree to disagree for now - there is no need for debate.

Don't they teach methodology and sources anymore?

She can't be quoting kids off tiktok ffs.

Op.

Ah bless. My teenage daughter burst into tears when she tried to "inform" me that transgender women started the Stonewall riots and I replied that wasn't she ashamed to be colluding in the erasure of lesbians like herself. I think the cognitive dissonance nearly blew her head off, especially when I pointed out Storme DeLavarie was a BLACK lesbian.

Tik-Tok is basically the online version of the rumour mill that used to flourish behind the bike sheds when we were at school. It's just kids telling each other more and more elaborate stories to make themselves look important.

I’ve mentioned this before on another thread, but I have a student who wanted to study some feminist theory, “but not old feminism, only the new intersectional feminism”. I said, okay, so what theorists have you been reading that you’d like to work on?

Kid said “oh, I haven’t read anything but I do watch a lot of YouTube videos”.

Me: 😐

(This is at a +RG university. I mean I’m only 20 years older than these kids, but I would have been fucking embarrassed as all hell to look so ignorant to my lecturers.)

Sorry, OP, that last sentence wasn’t directed particularly at you-I do find there’s a tendency to think that teenagers don’t know anything until they’re mature enough to agree!!