My teen daughter has burst out crying and gone upstairs because we were discussing Maya Forstater

[Bryonyshcmyony]

It came up on the news and I said something like surely its obvious that biological sex is real. Gender identity isn't the same as biological sex. She said people on tiktok say that there is a chromosomal spectrum. I said if someone has a chromosomal abnormality that's not proof that biological sex doesn't exist. Then she cried, said how frustrated I make her and just wants to live in a world where transpeople are accepted for who they are and its not her job to educate me as - and I quote - an ignorant old person.

I'm actually quite hurt. I don't want her to hate me! Obviously it's just a subject that is completely out of bounds. Anyone else faced similar?

@PegasusReturns

My teen DD is similar.

They cry because they cannot reconcile facts with the cult like acceptance that is demanded in schools and peer groups.

It’s so difficult for them .

See I worry that it's more than this and then genuinely believe that the views in their echo chamber - friends, school, tiktok, twitter, all other social media - are the only possible correct way to think and they cry because they are so disappointed that their parents are part of 'the others', the wrong ones.

I'm sure it will change as they grow older (mostly) but I do feel that their beliefs are so insular and unchallenged that they are genuinely shocked and upset when the people closest to them do not agree.

Wow, so much intolerance! Not from you OP - I'm more talking about the reaction from lots. It's not on, your DD being rude, but I bet most of us were at some point at that age. Who hasn't been a passionate teenager - wouldn't we worry if they weren't?! There's loads of trash on TikTok, but there's some thoughtful stuff too. Patronising teens by not listening just makes them even more entrenched. The OP's DD mentioned chromosomal spectrum - that's hardly a dumb-ass thing, so she's clearly very far from dim. Others have said this, but she might well have a friend who's going through some gender issues. My DS has a friend who now openly identifies as 'gender fluid'. DS and his friends (both male and female) are fine with it. I think that's rather fabulous - ie that that a person can be so open and honest about who they are. I hate this notion that trans people are dangerous predators - I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but it's mind blowing that so many people think it's so prevalent.

🤣😂🤣 Sex on a spectrum. Chromosomes on a spectrum 😂🤣😂

I don’t think this type of reaction is helpful tbh. Whether it’s true or not there is no need to laugh or make fun at what a teenager is saying - they will not come round or change their perceptions if you laugh at them and belittle them, there needs to be respect and understanding. I wholly agree with @Jewel, you can find common ground in what you are both saying and work from there.

See I worry that it's more than this and then genuinely believe that the views in their echo chamber - friends, school, tiktok, twitter, all other social media - are the only possible correct way to think and they cry because they are so disappointed that their parents are part of 'the others', the wrong ones

Yes I do think this is what she thinks.

@Sweetpeasaremadeforbees 'It's as if they're being groomed from an early age to accept that being treated like shit is part of being a woman.'

God, I really hope one day soon this generation of teenage girls get as 'woke' about themselves as women, and the historical mistreatment and abuse of women, as they do about everyone else.

I have a DS that thinks it’s all nonsense and a DS that’s rather woke. I wonder if it’s partly down to the older one doing PSE before 2015 when Stonewall became all about the T and one doing PSE after this. I don’t remember any of my older DS’s friends coming out as trans or NB, but my younger one definitely has NB friends, which probably makes him more sensitive (and he is a “be kind” type anyway). Since he called me a transphobe for disagreeing with the TWAW mantra I’ve just avoided conversations that might end up in an argument.

A big stick that was used to beat women was taken away today.
There are many sticks still used with which to beat them.

The balance of free speech has been restored but it won't take long for the pendulum to swing away from us again.

I see no reason to think much has changed unfortunately.
Haters gonna hate.

@Bryonyshcmyony

I did say I believe that some people want to change gender and that's fine. I said what happens if they change their sex from, say, female to male at their GPS. How do they then get calls for cervical smears and mammograms? She said oh I think they take health very seriously so wouldn't change their sex for that. Then I said so why are women losing their jobs for saying biological sex is real. Tears, screaming, shouting, flouncing.

Women who have transitioned from men have screening mammograms.

I suppose men can have breast cancer too. But why can't all men be screened in that case.

@BiscuitLover09876

She has a point op. I used to gender critical but I've looked into it a lot more. You are not completely wrong. She is not completely wrong. But you're also going to push her away.

Be kind. Also being a teen is really hard.

Ah, #BeKind - the catchphrase of people who want women to stop talking about biological reality and sex-based rights. We all know it really means #BeQuiet.

Men are supposed to self examine, they don't normally have enough breast tissue to have a mammogram.

Mixed sex mammograms clinics are not OK. They need to be single sex, otherwise there are a lot of women who wouldnt be able to attend.

They’ve all been brainwashed. The state of our schools is shocking.

I like to fight woke with woke (I am actually pretty woke in general). They can dismiss me as a white privileged ageing bigot but I find it's harder for them to belittle women of colour like the mighty Allison Bailey and Keira Bell. And the number of LGB people of all races who think the trans movement is fundamentally homophobic. They don't like being told they're being homophobic.

In my more optimistic moments I remember I was the teenage girl who thought porn and "sex work" was empowering (and worse things about DV and sexual assault).

My dd and I don't discuss trans issues at all anymore.
So I am taking a side on approach, such as discussing the rate of violence that makes commit, that mainly this violence is directed at other men but that also violence against women is perpetrated by males mostly as well.
Today or tomorrow I will try and go on from there to mentioning why women should have protected spaces that are single sex.
Part of our discussion yesterday was also around the fact that women can perceive more shades of colour than men and that men are more likely to suffer colour blindness.
So a drip drop approach which makes her consider differences between men and women, biologically and socially, with the hope that one day her brain will make the connection between biology being immutable and that that means men cannot become women and vice versa.
But yes is frustrating in the extreme!!

I think it's because they have to confront the sheer cognitive dissonance of it all, which must be very distressing.

Exactly, and if they could no longer believe it or pretend convincingly they'd be an unwoke pariah like you, to their friends and peer group.

I had the same very brief discussion with my DS....and he got very ranty when mansplaining his very scientifically minded DF ...about what transphobia is about over the cricket...so its not just girl's....I'm just gently reminding him about chromosomes and suggesting we talk about gender as a social construct.....soon makes him leave the room....he's younger 16 but thinking about philosophy so needs to learn how to discuss!

Keep having to not get ranty myself sometimes 🙃

@Bryonyshcmyony

Yeah I'm very pissed off. It's really unlike her we normally have good debates on things. She's going to a RG uni to study philosophy and it took all my strength to say you won't last 5 MINUTES.

Seriously??? No, she won’t last five minutes.

Then I said so why are women losing their jobs for saying biological sex is real. Tears, screaming, shouting, flouncing.

The reason she reacted like this sounds to me as though she knows her 'argument' has no weight and the outcome of Maya's appeal further evidences that her TikTok education is of zero value.

Your daughter was rude and I can understand that her comments would be hurtful to you OP. I'm not going to defend your daughter's actions, but at play here are immaturity, huge social media influence and peer pressure, so until she grows up and realises the truth, that sex is binary and TW are not women, it might be best to refrain from discussing it with her.

Oh, and she owes you an apology for her outburst/ageist comment.

Women who have transitioned from men have screening mammograms.

What does the above mean? A man who identifies as a woman, who has fake breasts has a screening mammogram?

*"I think I'm going against the consensus in this thread, but I actually don't agree the OP is handling it well, because it sounds like you're being just as simplistic as your daughter is.

It may not be welcome in this forum to say it, but there's a real debate to be had here.

I consider myself a diehard feminist, and I hate seeing how this battle is being played out between women, who have been and are badly discriminated against, and transwomen who are at least as badly (and in many cases probably more) discriminated against. Surely, we have more in common than what divides us?

Some of the language that the OP is using ('brainwashed') suggests that the OP doesn't acknowledge any room for debate and I can understand how the daughter finds this frustrating."*

@WanderleyWagon yeah I agree (although I do have some problems with some of the 'be kind' brigade as sometimes it's used just to try to shut people up).

I also see that those on the GC side often really patronise the other side, eg 'they'll come round when they've grown up' or seeing it as a teenage phase (akin to what some used to say about people coming out), which is quite rude really. I can see why that's frustrating too.

Tell her that shes welcome to believe whatever she wants. Its a free country, but likewise, you are entitled to your views too, and its interesting that shes getting upset over something that has just been legally deemed to be a protected view. This has been pored over by the courts and youre just discussing something current in the news that you think is sensible and in line with scientific thinking. If she wants to educate me on what tiktok thinks, then no need as youre quite aware

@Sweetpeasaremadeforbees

I asked her what the evidence for this was. She could not come up with anything better than 'everyone knows she is'. I asked her to read JKR's letter and then tell me whether she is transphobic and if so why. She just wouldn't engage with it.

Yes I had this with DD 14 but she did at least read the letter although she made no comment.

She knows my views, I know hers, we don't really discuss it. All I've said is I don't understand her generation's obsession with having a label (we fought against all that in the 80s) but so long as she doesn't expect me to support her to irreversibly alter her body she can label herself what she likes. (I think it's currently non binary)

I do find it bizarre that so many girls seem to support this shit. Didn't a report the other day find that nearly 9 in ten girls have been sexually harassed in schools by boys or been pestered for nude pics and yet still they're fine giving up their safe spaces such as single sex toilets? It's as if they're being groomed from an early age to accept that being treated like shit is part of being a woman.

This issue of labelling is what really gets to me. I feel like they are all making themselves much less liberated than we were 30 years ago.

It’s incredibly introspective (natural for teenagers I guess) and I am worried that they won’t learn to judge critically because they are too busy trying to be inclusive but really being intolerant of anyone who dares to question their beliefs. Really hoping it’s a phase that will pass but lockdown hasn’t been helpful in this respect

@ChloeCrocodile

She said people on tiktok say that there is a chromosomal spectrum.

I'd find this really hard to ignore or placate tbh. A spectrum has a very specific scientific meaning (a condition that is not limited to a specific set of values but can vary, without steps, across a continuum). Basically, if it is something you can count (like apples) is CANNOT exist on a spectrum. If is it something you measure (the weight of an apple) it can exist on a spectrum. Chromosomes are things which can be counted.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and beliefs. Nobody is entitled to their own facts.

That's a really interesting way of defining a spectrum. Thanks for that!

I've had to just keep the trans discussion with DD quite subtle to avoid too many rows

I have to do this unfortunately it's at peak wtf do you know about anything time as well.

A couple of years ago I didn't think we'd have a problem but school, friendship group constantly changing names and pronouns, youth group they went to for a while then LGBT+ group at school and more general zeitgeist and we do.

We watched John Oliver and he has a comment about JK and she started up and I had to say have you read what she actually said answer was no so I suggested she did.

DS is less an issue so far I think - though very quite on the subject - but I was in same room as he was watching minecraft you tuber and suddeny the guy started spouting utter nonsense on the issue and be kind shit - I did ask some questions and DS seemed about what was being said.

I think there's a lot of drip drip drip for them. I certainly found the workplace eye opening in an awful way - maybe it will be the same though I do wonder.

Mine haven't stormed off or burst out crying but I am careful - not least as DH gets a very worried look every time I do though he's seen the light for a while thanks to work situation.

I have a 15 year old son and whilst he knows the difference between sex and gender and knows of trans kids in his school he just isn't interested. I do think (from this thread and other bits of reading) it is a girl thing and it does seem very cool to give yourself a label and be swept along with the crowd. I think an example of this was the 'superstraight' thing that started a few months ago where a boy jokingly put up a tiktok that he would only date biological girls (basically a heterosexual relationship). From what I recall it got something like 2 million likes (could be wrong) before TikTok took it down - because it was supposedly 'transphobic'? It seems like everyone is trying to beat everyone else to be 'new' and 'on-trend' and they are running out of options.

I also think it is about perception. Young people's experiences of 'trans' are often their friends or some young mtf swishing their hair on tik tok asking for validation on how (questionably) gorgeous they are! However, as you get older (and possibly have kids of your own) you are probably more inclined to see the implications of grown men in female spaces.

Trans women who have physically changed sex are at greater risk than men because of the hormones taken. They are invited on the screening programme and can have mammograms. Men can also have mammograms if male breast cancer is suspected, and, yes, there is enough tissue.