My teen daughter has burst out crying and gone upstairs because we were discussing Maya Forstater

[Bryonyshcmyony]

It came up on the news and I said something like surely its obvious that biological sex is real. Gender identity isn't the same as biological sex. She said people on tiktok say that there is a chromosomal spectrum. I said if someone has a chromosomal abnormality that's not proof that biological sex doesn't exist. Then she cried, said how frustrated I make her and just wants to live in a world where transpeople are accepted for who they are and its not her job to educate me as - and I quote - an ignorant old person.

I'm actually quite hurt. I don't want her to hate me! Obviously it's just a subject that is completely out of bounds. Anyone else faced similar?

It is hard for many teenagers as peers and influence are everything, social media is everything, and wokiness is crazy on some of these sites. We don’t see it as much as adults but our kids are in a strange world and if they don’t conform to it - they can be ostracized.

I hope she realises that studying philosophy, she will probably face a lot of ideologies that she doesn't believe in and she definitely won't be able to use tiktok to back up her claims 🙄🙄 she will be laughed out of the lecture hall. Sounds like she is very immature

Although I am a bit surprised that a number of posters on this thread also believe that chromosomes can somehow lie on a spectrum!

Er.... no they really don’t! (Scientist here, although you really don’t have to be to know this surely!)

And that this knowledge, this truth, is absolutely nothing to do with discrimination of any kind? You know that, right?!

Too many people, but mainly younger people are engaging in group think virtue signalling. All you can do is continue to challenge her and explain that refusal to engage with the opposite argument massively weakens her position on it, and devalues her view. You also need to explain the importance of feminism. She’ll come round at some point.

Perhaps get her to read about the Trans "women", who have been sent to female prisons and go on to rape female inmates with their male penis? It happens an awful lot. Ask her why the Transwoman's rights trump the rights of the other women in jail.

Or ask her how she'd feel if she was an athlete who could never achieve 1st place, because a 6ft 6 Trans woman was competing against her?

She will "get it" eventually.

I remember my DD's teen years. She thought I was ancient and unaccepting and "phobic" when I said that I would never date a bi-sexual man. I got lots of eye rolls for that one. Now she's almost 23, with a serious boyfriend, her opinion has somewhat changed.

I won't relay the fury my DS expressed when I told him I would prefer that he didn't refer to me as a cis-woman.
What was clear from his response is that I know absolutely nothing. He calmed down eventually but, dear God, what a state we are in when he, as a man, tries to tell me how I should identify as a woman.

@Peanutbuttercupisyum

Too many people, but mainly younger people are engaging in group think virtue signalling. All you can do is continue to challenge her and explain that refusal to engage with the opposite argument massively weakens her position on it, and devalues her view. You also need to explain the importance of feminism. She’ll come round at some point.

Yes take this approach and she will just stop talking to you about these issues. So many of you are so determined to change your children's views that you forget you are also a parent. It is not always about being right.

@Reallyreallyborednow

Just an observation, but it seems to be mainly girls mentioned on this thread. Does anyone with sons have the same “be kind” and gender is a spectrum with their sons?

My ds is only 12 so just beginning to learn about all this stuff, but the only people he's hearing all this "gender" stuff from is the girls in his year group! The boys aren't in the slightest bit interested really, but the girls are almost obsessed. He withdrew from the year 7 whats app because the girls couldn't stop going on about "trans rights" this and "LBGT" that and he found it annoying and boring.

@Reallyreallyborednow

Just an observation, but it seems to be mainly girls mentioned on this thread. Does anyone with sons have the same “be kind” and gender is a spectrum with their sons?

Not my son.

My father.

Visiting them soon and have decided to keep my beak shut. They know how I feel so not worth poking the hornets' nest.

He's just protecting my brother who is deep in to queer theory.

I have had a couple of conversations with my sons (not teens yet) about this. One was around JKR when one of them said 'she has too much time all she does is talkabout transgender and bathrooms'. So I gently asked him what exactly he knew about what she had said. He didn't know much, and we had a conversation about single sex spaces and privacy. He is very clear that you can't change sex, but I am waiting for the peer pressure in the next few years.

I have also shown them this video from the Family Policy Institute of Washington 'Gender Identity: Can a 5'9, White Guy Be a 6'5, Chinese Woman?'. It is only 4 minutes and is a great conversation starter.

I am trying to teach them to be kind, but also to tell the truth. Navigating the nuances of that are difficult.

@slug

Ah bless. My teenage daughter burst into tears when she tried to "inform" me that transgender women started the Stonewall riots and I replied that wasn't she ashamed to be colluding in the erasure of lesbians like herself. I think the cognitive dissonance nearly blew her head off, especially when I pointed out Storme DeLavarie was a BLACK lesbian.

Tik-Tok is basically the online version of the rumour mill that used to flourish behind the bike sheds when we were at school. It's just kids telling each other more and more elaborate stories to make themselves look important.

Your daughter doesn't have her facts right, unfortunately. It was lesbians - not transgender women - who started the Stonewall riots.

Oops - sorry, didn't mean to sound patronising and I apologise. You have the facts correct, of course.

3 years farting about at university studying philosophy - how fortunate to have that luxury. Perhaps she may even learn to tolerate facts that she doesn't like without chucking the toys or making sillybitch ageist comments.

Just ignore. She's leaving soon and I bet you're quite glad!

My DD is now a university student, but was very similar pre-university. I later discovered that one of her close male friends transitioned prior to starting university. I think she was really upset about it all, although she wanted to be accepting that TWAW, and me pointing out scientific facts to her was just too much! I still don't discuss the subject with her, but I do think that as she's maturing, she does see my view might have a point, although she wouldn't yet admit it.

@Reallyreallyborednow - My DS13 believes you're either male or female and there is no changing that no matter how you identify. He wouldn't be rude to someone but believes in biology and science at the end of the day

If my daugheter started crying over something like that I'd assume she or someone close to her is having issues and she's upset oyu're thinking the same way that biased people she/her friend has had to deal with. The people laughing at her and saying 'angsty teens' need to have words with themselves

chromosomal spectrum

Oh ffs whatever next 🙄

Oh this reminds me of a conversation DH and I were having on this subject a few weeks ago.

I was explaining to him about the schools consultation on the new PHSE curriculum and why we needed to ask questions about the materials and what they're being taught on this specific subject. He hadn't even considered it and we had a long chat about the erosions on (biological) women's rights/safe spaces and got into the topic of sports etc. I was pleased, I managed to have a sensible conversation with someone who'd never even considered any of this and he agreed wholeheartedly with me (my view being that every human is entitled to live their lives at they please, free from discrimination and harassment however surgery/hormones/clothes/feelings do not change your biological sex and people shouldn't be forced to say otherwise). DH couldn't understand why this was a controversial view.

Then we both said 'oh bloody hell, by the time our girls are old enough for this to be an issue they're going to think we're ignorant old people like we used to with our parents about things, aren't they!' We actually said ignorant old people.

Our daughters are 5 and 2 so I hope by the time they're old enough to understand about all this a more sensible message abounds. Be kind should apply to everyone, and it's not kind to remove safe spaces, erase rights and make sports unsafe for biological women.

OP teenagers thinking their parents are clueless fuddy duddies is a problem as old as time I think. Your daughter shouldn't have been rude to you, I'd be really cross. But I expect I'd have said the same to my mother at 17/18 (and have received a flea in the ear for it too!). I still hugely disagree with my Dad about things (Brexit, mostly) but am able to discuss things with respect and maturity and agree to disagree. I'm 37 though!

@Bryonyshcmyony

It came up on the news and I said something like surely its obvious that biological sex is real. Gender identity isn't the same as biological sex. She said people on tiktok say that there is a chromosomal spectrum. I said if someone has a chromosomal abnormality that's not proof that biological sex doesn't exist. Then she cried, said how frustrated I make her and just wants to live in a world where transpeople are accepted for who they are and its not her job to educate me as - and I quote - an ignorant old person.

I'm actually quite hurt. I don't want her to hate me! Obviously it's just a subject that is completely out of bounds. Anyone else faced similar?

Can’t you just not discuss it? Honestly if a subject was causing my teen enough upset to start crying and running from the room I think I’d leave it be.

Honestly believe most of these kids will come out the other side of this as long as they’re not medicated/operated upon. I do believe there are some of them who firmly believe they were born in the wrong body. Back in the day those children we called homosexuals, now they are straight but in the wrong body. Then they’ll be a smaller portion who have gender dysphoria and they will live their whole lives as their preferred sex and feel much better for doing so. The majority though will just be a normal citizen who navigates life as straight or

godmum56
I think that this is another one of those times in history where the whole of society is grappling with new concepts and having to work through new ideas. ...difficult for all of us but especially difficult for teens.

cakedays
"Equally, there are plenty of times in history where societies have been gripped by silly ideas, and it’s taken a while to shake them out again.

This looks more like one of those times."

yes and time will tell which it is.....

My 19 year old tried to mansplain that I was a Terf to me. He got educated that evening.

The issue I guess is that of his primary school class of 30, 3 have come out as trans, 2 M to F and one F to M. All lovely kids, my view from being in their company a fair bit is that 2 of them are probably gay and one has always had gender identity issues (not that it's just down to what I observe though!) I remember DS coming home from school at age 5 and telling me that x child just isn't like the other boys but unable to really articulate why.

None of these kids are scary or activists or doing anything other than trying to lead their lives. That's what he sees as trans and therefore can't get what the fuss is about. I'm telling him it's not about the individual people and that the fact he has lived a male experience growing up means that despite having a woman for a mother and a girlfriend and speaking to girls at school, he really doesn't have the lived experience of a woman...

He is honestly a lovely lad and I'm sure will grow out of it....

bi, they’ll have their own families and conform like the rest of us did. At the moment though gender politics is a massive hit potato and if my opinions were upsetting my child I’d just keep my mouth shut about it in their company.

@BeingATwatItsABingThing

Luckily my DD1 is only 7 but I hope the world will have seen reason by the time she is old enough to be aware of it all.

I would be encouraging her to do her own research into this and, when she can have a civilised discussion without resorting to name calling (something TRAs aren’t very good at!), you will accept her apology for calling you ignorant and old.

A 10 year old told me yesterday the kids in her class were already talking about being able to change sex/sexuality etc. So it’s coming to your daughter in a few years time.

I think I'd tell her I was disappointed with her ageism.

@Bryonyshcmyony

Maybe try asking your DD some of the questions here:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4168284-Staniland-Question-is-so-good-Can-we-think-of-others