Starmer and the Labour Party Really Cannot Read the Room

[ChristinaXYZ]

Labour and Self-id

twitter.com/PinkNews/status/1402586773499244549

Rosie Duffield gets the predictable kicking in the comments. Still no public support for her. That's what the Labour leadership think about women's rights and women who have an opinion.

Why any women would vote Labour I really do not know.

Yes, WeeBisom.

And I think it also highlights something about polls.

Polls aren't, generally, done in order to provide people with something that confirms their own opinion, or to provide people with a Twitter 'gotcha!'.

They are done to elicit information which can then be used.

The polling on public opinion around trans issues is really interesting - and potentially useful.

It provides a really interesting snapshot of what people know/don't know and what they (presently) think.

It really annoys me when Owen Jones trots out selected information because he's doing it very disingenuously and in a very unhelpful way.

He does it as a call-out to his chosen ideological community to dig in harder. To abandon nuance, communication, and pluralism and to don the mantle of righteous intransigence instead. He's encouraging his people to believe in conspiracies, basically - that malign forces are holding back the majority of people from the progress they crave.

But the truth is far more nuanced than that.

And unless the Labour Party starts putting itself where the majority of the electorate are - where they are in reality, not fantasy - we are going to carry on getting Conservstive governments.

I have my own opinion on exactly what Owen Jones is doing and why...

I'd be interested to know, among the general public - what they understand a "transgender woman" to be.
Are people assuming fully medically transitioned with surgery / hormones etc. Or transgender as in the Stonewall umbrella defintion which is much broader?
Was this clear in the question?

Polls aren't, generally, done in order to provide people with something that confirms their own opinion, or to provide people with a Twitter 'gotcha!'.

I disagree. An official poll may be intended to illicit information but when an organisation such as Novara Media commission a survey from a company like YouGov they will have the final say in how questions in the survey are worded, they are the customer after all and we know that the way way questions are worded can influence the way people answer.

The purpose of these surveys is to sway public opinion, it gives the impression self ID is a fait accompli because it has such wide support therefore objection is futile and in a climate of cancel culture they become very powerful tools in silencing people and enabling those with an agenda and no respect for democracy to get their way.

Aren't Novara using an d YouGov poll?

It looks similar to the poll WeeBisom and I are referencing.

Similar results: generally pro 'self-id' but then becomes clear, as questions progress, people have no clarity on what terms such as 'trans women' or 'self-id' mean. Which is unsurprising, given that the contention, right now, is about what those things might mean in law.

Have Novara really shelled out for a YouGov poll of their own?

I'd be surprised. They seem far too ramshackle an outfit for that.

I'd be interested to know, among the general public - what they understand a "transgender woman" to be.

Other polls have shown a large percentage of the public logically take that to mean transmen, who are indeed transgender women.

If you're not familiar with the word games, it's not clear what is meant.

So often when asked "should transgender women be allowed in women's sport", some people think they're being asked whether some females should be excluded.

You Gov poll: https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2020/07/16/where-does-british-public-stand-transgender-rights

It's the detail that matters.

As WeeBisom points out.

Selectively quoting - which is what happens a lot - is massively unhelpful when it comes to actually doing politics, as opposed to using it as a playground to reconfirm your own beliefs.

I really wonder what it's going to take for Labour members t- all members - to understand electoral politics is about getting the electorate to vote for you - rather than just shouting at people who disagree that they are wrong, bad, and evil. 🤷‍♀️

And that view - that you need people to vote for you - isn't a sell-out, doesn't make someone a Tory-in-disguise, isn't collusion with being-liberalism - it's just a fact in a democratic system.

Just to go back to the thread - We're all hoping someway, somehow, that KS will do a great big reveal and show the world he was really GC all along.

KS has been well and truly stonewalled and I believe he believes Stonewall Law is the right sort of law and that we are misguided idiots.

We've got news for you KS (I get so fouqing mad that long, long time supporters like me have been made homeless because a trend from the US has, by stealth and without debate, taken over our institutions.

I wonder if KS has looked at Wales and thought 'that's what we should do'

YouGov is a private global market research and data analytics company. Their sampling is taken from a self selecting group of people who sign up to participate in surveys on line. In your last link there is an asterisk which indicates part of that survey was conducted separately for Pink News. I don't believe their surveys are impartial and the customer can certainly control the data they present so I take anything they publish with a mountain of salt.

Why any women would vote Labour I really do not know.

For the most part it's because they don't have the full picture.
Many people (women and men) still think the 'trans rights' Labour defends just means the rights of gay men who dress up and otherwise perform as women.

I think you’re right @peadarm. They also don’t realise that nowadays Trans doesn’t just mean transsexuals, people that have gone through gender reassignment. It now means any man can say he feels like a women and we have to accept it. I.e No Debate. I mean even transvestites fall under the trans umbrella according to Stonewall, whether they like it or not.

Genuinely devastated by this and very worried I will have the option of either spoiling my ballot or voting Tory at the next election.
I have never voted Tory before and on my DM's side come from a strong left line, trade unionists etc. What on earth is KS thinking??
To those saying we should rejoin the Labour Party at this time, it would feel wrong to show support in any way, and I worry for my family and livelihood because I wouldn't be able to keep my mouth shut.

I will point out that a lot of the policies that the Conservatives are at least making an attempt to unravel did first appear during the coalition years; much of it can be traced directly to the influence of the Lib Dems.

I will also point out that many issues have arisen due to the poor drafting of the EqA2010, (brought in under a Labour government under the influence of the EU) where ‘gender reassignment’, originally as discussed in both the Lords and the Commons as a medical process, apart from rare cases, is now defined in such broad brush terms as it to make it almost meaningless.

ALL parties are culpable in what has happened, and it was all predicted by some parliamentarians at the time of the GRA debates in 2003/4. The EqA arguably just made things even worse.

The best hope of sorting this out is the Conservative party at the moment. They aren’t ‘doing nothing’, but this ideology is so rooted in government after decades of lobbying that it will take years (though the PM could help by standing up at PMQs and saying ‘women are adult human females’, that would get things moving).

Meanwhile, I will continue to talk to my Conservative MP, who has been very helpful and supportive, and I will continue to post thank you cards to Liz, Kemi, Jackie, Rosie, Tonia, and every other parliamentarian who speaks up for women.

Actually it's the echo chambers on here that can''t read outside of their closeted room..... Keith has it right.

You've posted this multiple times on FWR, and every time it gets debunked.

The yougov poll actually indicates that the more information voters have the less supportive they are of trans stuff. And they also indicate a confusion among voters. They appear to hold contradictory ideas. For instance the majority of people in the U.K. agree that “people should be able to self identify as a different gender from the one they were born in.” Brilliant; a resounding success for self id. However, British people also overwhelmingly are against measures that implement self id! The vast majority agree that trans people need to see doctors for a gender dysphoria diagnosis and also that they need to live for two years in the acquired gender. What is going on? U.K. people say they support self id but actually support the status quo.

You can also see this when the question is phrased to include trans women with male parts who haven’t had surgery. There the support for them being in female spaces and female sports radically drops to almost nothing.

I think these polls show the public don’t have a lot of information and are confused about this issue. On the surface , people want to be supportive so they say they support self id. But when you describe what self id actually means in detail - no medical diagnosis of dysphoria, no living as the acquired gender, no surgery - people change their mind. What this shows is it is disingenuous to pluck a random poll result and say “BRITISH PEOPLE THINK TWAW” because to be honest the polls show contradictory thoughts. If the public really thinks that trans women are women they should automatically agree they belong in female sports, prisons etc, but they don’t.

YY this is a great analysis. So tired of all the bullshit spin.

"The best hope of sorting this out is the Conservative party at the moment. They aren’t ‘doing nothing’, but this ideology is so rooted in government after decades of lobbying that it will take years (though the PM could help by standing up at PMQs and saying ‘women are adult human females’, that would get things moving)."

They've been in power since 2015. They haven't sorted it out so far.
At best, they're happy to do little or nothing in the interests of wrecking the Left; at worst, they deliberately engineered the whole thing for the same reason.
That's why I think Conservative women should stay put and keep the pressure up.

"To those saying we should rejoin the Labour Party at this time, it would feel wrong to show support in any way, and I worry for my family and livelihood because I wouldn't be able to keep my mouth shut."

Do you feel able to keep the pressure up while not a party member? I'm firmly of the opinion that doing whatever we can, however small, is better than doing nothing. So we all do what we can.
That's why I think Labour/LibDem/Green etc. women should stay put and keep the pressure up, not resign on principle.

If the public really thinks that trans women are women they should automatically agree they belong in female sports, prisons etc, but they don’t.

Not really. A trans woman with GRC can legally be a woman, and also legally be excluded from women’s sport.

It isn’t contradictory; it’s the law.

Actually it's the echo chambers on here that can''t read outside of their closeted room..... Keith has it right.

I am going to try this again as I accidentally deleted some of the post.

It is actually really important to look further than biased screen grabs isn't it? It is better to look further than the top line as always. As others have posted.

A bit like stating that one of the founders of Stonewall should get 'educated' about gay and lesbian rights history.

Did we also ever establish whether or not you actually understand what the whole Australian 'fair go' cultural reference was that you used recently?

Not really. A trans woman with GRC can legally be a woman, and also legally be excluded from women’s sport.

They don't have all the same legal rights as women, so it's a legal fiction with exemptions.

Starmer looked like he was giving a review of a primary school play while suffering the after-effects of flu medicine.

He's chanting the accepted mantra and praying for death.