Starmer and the Labour Party Really Cannot Read the Room

[ChristinaXYZ]

Labour and Self-id

twitter.com/PinkNews/status/1402586773499244549

Rosie Duffield gets the predictable kicking in the comments. Still no public support for her. That's what the Labour leadership think about women's rights and women who have an opinion.

Why any women would vote Labour I really do not know.

There are some really good responses to that tweet that focus on them being a trade union and the case being an issue about workers rights.

they do keep chipping away at the problems.

I strongly suspect a huge amount going on. getting Neutral people into key roles like EHRC, DfE etc has lead to quiet significant changes.

@ChristinaXYZ

And if anyone really needs any more proof of what the Labour/Left in this country really thinks about women then look at the response of the TUC to the Maya judgement:

twitter.com/The_TUC/status/1402949928075378688

Nothing about how great it is that women are free to express their beliefs at work with the full protection of the law in terms of keeping their jobs (you know - stuff a union should care about) just the implied criticism that all we want to do is rush out and bully our trans colleagues because we must all be horrible bigots. Maya has never bullied anyone and no-one is arguing for the right to do it. Some backing TUC - thanks for nothing.

I can't help but ask.. why would any woman pay TUC membership fees?

Since when have TU's ever been pro women? I think self-id was made for TU's. This is why KS cannot come out and back GC women

I seem to recall a Kiri Tunks speech about teenage female matchstick sellers starting the trade unions.

Now this is interesting...
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/06/10/has-starmer-abandoned-rosie-duffield-mob-trans-debate/

TWEET
Ann Sinnott @AnnMSinnott
As a result of the Forstater judgement today, @RosieDuffield1
could consider taking legal action against @UKLabour

That's really interesting @FindTheTruth

"The journalist Adam Cailler asked Starmer’s official spokesman about abuse that Duffield has sustained after she stated that “only women have a cervix”. Cailler reported that in response, the spokesman had said: “the party always makes an effort to support members of the PLP” but (according to Cailler) wouldn’t give any further detail.

Duffield herself then Tweeted: “Apparently not this member of the PLP Adam…!”

Such challenges to Starmer’s authority – and that’s what this is – are expected from the Corbynite Left on a daily basis. For someone like Duffield to go public with her complaint that she has, apparently, received no such support from her party, says a great deal about where this fraught debate over trans rights – and perhaps other explosive cultural issues – are taking the party."

@Thelnebriati

There are some really good responses to that tweet that focus on them being a trade union and the case being an issue about workers rights.

It’s ridiculous that they aren’t viewing this through the perspective of freedom of belief for workers.

@Tanith

"But everything else, and even possibly that, will be opened by an assistant and he will only read it or be told about it if the assistant judges that he needs to see it or be informed of its contents. If the assistant decides he doesn't, it will be answered by a staffer and filed, or ignored and binned."

Have you a better suggestion?

I've a feeling that anything marked "personal" only gets opened by the named recipient. No staffer can have a look.

Telegraph piece archived here: <a class="break-all" href="http://web.archive.org/web/20210610143539/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/06/10/has-starmer-abandoned-rosie-duffield-mob-trans-debate/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20210610143539/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/06/10/has-starmer-abandoned-rosie-duffield-mob-trans-debate/

@DdraigGoch said "I've a feeling that anything marked "personal" only gets opened by the named recipient. No staffer can have a look."

There's a site called "Working for an MP" www.w4mp.org/

It provides guides for, unsurprisingly, those working for MPs.

Firstly, it emphasises that only correspondence from constituents of an MP should be dealt with by the MP's office.

It also acknowledges that different offices may have different systems.

However, below is part of the advice on dealing with incoming post:
"Be ruthless with incoming items. Agree with your MP what s/he really wants to see. It is unreasonable to imagine that every MP wants or needs to see every item sent by every organisation or individual that chooses to contact them."

And under the heading "Opening the post" the first item is "Open all envelopes".

So certainly try writing to your own MP. But it might be as well to be aware that s/he may not see your letter.

The best way to guarantee that you mp hears your concerns is to speak to them at their surgery.

Looking forward to KS speech for Sexmatters on supporting GC beliefs and safeguarded spaces for women.

Karen Ingala Smith refused membership of the Labour Party. So much for trying to influence things from within.

twitter.com/polblonde/status/1402944319963680769?s=20

Lesbians Labour refused permission to run a fringe zoom meeting at the virtual Labour Party Women's Conference.

twitter.com/LesbianLabour/status/1403113383088607233?s=20

Is this Labour declaring all out war on women?

@FOJN

Lesbians Labour refused permission to run a fringe zoom meeting at the virtual Labour Party Women's Conference.

twitter.com/LesbianLabour/status/1403113383088607233?s=20

Is this Labour declaring all out war on women?

Is there a list of the Fringe Groups who HAVE been accepted?

Is there a list of the Fringe Groups who HAVE been accepted?

There is no detail about the program on the website yet.

I was sure earlier this week I had seen the Pink News Tweet had been reshared by the official Labour Party? I cannot find this now. Have they deleted it?

I cannot find the original tweet on the twitter feed of Pink News as they have posted about a thousand tweets in the last 2 days so I can't check who's retweeted it. But I was absolutely confident it had been retweeted officially, and now seems to have been taken down.

@ChristinaXYZ

Labour and Self-id

twitter.com/PinkNews/status/1402586773499244549

Rosie Duffield gets the predictable kicking in the comments. Still no public support for her. That's what the Labour leadership think about women's rights and women who have an opinion.

Why any women would vote Labour I really do not know.

Actually it's the echo chambers on here that can''t read outside of their closeted room..... Keith has it right.

@MishyJDI are you the same person who was posting that graphic all over Twitter? It’s very misleading.

Also the small fact we have a Tory government with a majority of 80, and not a government run by any of the other parties, might suggest to you that a poll from “stats for lefties” isn’t really representative of the opinions of the wider public.

If the public wanted a “woke” party they wouldn’t be flocking to vote Tory in droves.

Here are two polls that do not show the same as the Pink News commissioned poll:

fairplayforwomen.com/poll/

wingsoverscotland.com/nobody-cares-what-you-think/

mishyjdi

Those stats are fine but ... you realise that's not the whole picture?

Polling suggests many people are in favour of self-id and will agree with a statement such as the one you've linked to.

However, when questions progress to more detail, such as, should biological men play in women's sports, there is a resounding, 'no'.

Now, that response means that people - generally - in that first question ('are transgender women women' etc) understand very different things when they answer the question.

Some people think they are answering this question: 'should trans women be afforded every legal and social right to be understood to be women, with no exemptions?'

Other people think they're answering, 'would you, personally, go out of your way to make a transgender woman as comfortable as possible in her identity?'

And there's a massive difference between the two.

Which is why there is such a seeming illogicality between many people answering, 'yes' to a first question such as that, and then 'no' to questions which are a logical consequence of that first 'yes'.

And, you know, it's in that gap that the political work of persuasion takes place. Which is work that people need to do.

Simply pointing to polls that show a 'yes' to that first question isn't enough.

Lastly, there is something so, so, so delusional about this.

I can't stress this enough: we are looking at a situation where there is a Conservative government with an 80-seat majority.

And it's not shifting.

The electorate are telling us lefties and progressives what they think at the polls.

At some point, we have to listen to them.

Otherwise ... what? 10 years out of power? 20? 30? Labour won't survive being out of power for another 10 years.

There is something truly mad/delusional about the denial inherent in just ignoring what the electorate is telling us.

Mumsnet isn't the echo chamber you think it is. Mumsnet is more leftie than the outside world.

A lot of people here are still voting Labour.

In the U.K. - less so.

Honestly, I hear you. I get where you're coming from. But if we ever want to form a government, we need to dump the whole binary way of thinking ('My opinion is right. My opinion is on the side of the angels. Anyone who doesn't hold it is morally bad and evil.') and start listening - and engaging in a pluralistic dialogue.

MishyJDI

Googling YouGov and Novara Media might be useful. You can commission a survey from YouGov to say anything you like if you're willing to pay for it, it's not the official authority you seem to think it is.

This is good:

www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/columnists/keir-starmer-must-show-courage-and-protect-women-and-their-hard-fought-rights-susan-dalgety-3269707

The yougov poll actually indicates that the more information voters have the less supportive they are of trans stuff. And they also indicate a confusion among voters. They appear to hold contradictory ideas. For instance the majority of people in the U.K. agree that “people should be able to self identify as a different gender from the one they were born in.” Brilliant; a resounding success for self id. However, British people also overwhelmingly are against measures that implement self id! The vast majority agree that trans people need to see doctors for a gender dysphoria diagnosis and also that they need to live for two years in the acquired gender. What is going on? U.K. people say they support self id but actually support the status quo.

You can also see this when the question is phrased to include trans women with male parts who haven’t had surgery. There the support for them being in female spaces and female sports radically drops to almost nothing.

I think these polls show the public don’t have a lot of information and are confused about this issue. On the surface , people want to be supportive so they say they support self id. But when you describe what self id actually means in detail - no medical diagnosis of dysphoria, no living as the acquired gender, no surgery - people change their mind. What this shows is it is disingenuous to pluck a random poll result and say “BRITISH PEOPLE THINK TWAW” because to be honest the polls show contradictory thoughts. If the public really thinks that trans women are women they should automatically agree they belong in female sports, prisons etc, but they don’t.