R4 now Tuesday 7.51 am

[somethinginoffensive]

Discussing Stonewall.

Justin Webb's been one of the only Today presenters who's openly GC, and he's been quietly pressing our case for more than a year now. I seem to recall him mentioning at some point that he'd seen what was happening in the US when he was based over there — so he was a bit ahead of the game. Kudos to him. He and Emily Maitlis have been pushing from within a captured organisation and deserve acknowledgement.

That was quite glorious!

It is utterly telling that the TWAW side of the debate seem incapable of discussing their point of view calmly and rationally.

Just telling people it is bigoted won't cut it. Address the legitimate issues raised and try to win your point of view that way.

This segment of a widely-heard breakfast programme has done the cause so much good. Simon Fanshawe came across as calm and considered, Ben Cohen as angry and ranting. Justin Webb pointed out questions that weren't being answered and challenged on GC being "the polite word for" transphobia. Thank you Today programme. Now if you could please teach Women's Hour a thing or two...!

@somethinginoffensive

Was Ben's point "if I shout enough and claim enough protected characteristics you will agree that there's nothing to discuss here"?

BC was playing protected characteristics Top Trumps. A game in which a trans woman scores highest, and a biological woman scores lowest.

Well that was fun.

I spotted that. Three men discussing the impact on women. Where’s Ben’s even-handedness on that omission? Great piece though. Well done Simon AND Ben.

I'm only commenting so I remember to listen to it later 😀

I that was hilarious!!! Cohen just came across as unhinged and Simon Fanshawe was so eloquent.
I haven’t had a laugh like that for ages! Go Justin Webb!!!

In all fairness.... stonewall are in their bunker now aren’t they?

And have you seen the new flag... oh my...

That was lively.

In the intro Justin Webb referred to Stonewall as a "trans rights charity". He said he'd hoped to speak with Stonewall but they refused to come on. Simon Fanshawe came on first to present the GC view. Slightly muddled but decent enough. Then it was Benjamin Cohen who didn't waste time presentating arguments but went straight into a rant throwing accusations about.

Following the rant it really went off-piste. In response to Cohen saying there were no trans people involved in the discussion Webb replied "No 1, you don't know anything about me, no 2 could you answer the question?"

Benjamin Cohen lied about Stonewall not campaigning to remove the Equality Act exceptions.

Then in the middle of more incoherent ranting Webb cut Cohen off saying they had to go to the next segment.

By the end of the interview Webb was oozing contempt which while great to listen to could end up with him being sanctioned by the BBC and taken off this issue. That would be a shame.

Oh dear. That was a car crash. Cohen was so bad it made the BBC look biased. The "remove exemptions...such as to single-sex spaces" is still on the SW website - it's the first Google search result for 'stonewall single sex spaces'. I don't understand why he said they weren't campaigning for that.

A delightful contrast between the simple, descriptive explanations from SF and full on confusing, attack rant from BC.

The only thing I agreed with from BC was the need to hear from trans people in interviews.

Now I want to see Emily Maitlis interview a spokesperson from Stonewall...that would be epic.

I’ve never actually heard Debbie speak... in my head they have a Lancashire accent but that could be complete wrong.

I’m still laughing 🤣

JW objecting to being called cisgender 🤣🤣🤣

@AuntyFungal

A delightful contrast between the simple, descriptive explanations from SF and full on confusing, attack rant from BC.

The only thing I agreed with from BC was the need to hear from trans people in interviews.

But Stonewall declined the interview, so it's not like they weren't given an opportunity.

DH texted me from from the car (parked I’m sure! Nursery run!) telling me ‘some guy from Pink News was on the Today programme talking about Stonewall and self ID and he sounded like a psycho’.

Stonewall’s last outing on the BBC didn’t go so well, so not surprising that they’re hunkering down.

Omg. Cohen totally unhinged on that.

Justin was like trying to get him to engage but Cohen just kept making statements

Gender critical another word for transphobia 🏌️‍♀️🤷‍♀️

Justin Webb's been one of the only Today presenters who's openly GC

I'd describe his position as having a strong aversion to identity politics. He spent a long time in the US as a BBC correspondent and came to really love the country but, I think, view identity politics as a corrosive and damaging influence.

Yes Ben, that was a ridiculous interview (any idea who was being ridiculous? ), and no you didn't keep your cool.

I think a big turning point has been that when GC people have got on the media, they have all had a lot of media training (or look as if they have) and been v impressive performers - compared to those just going 'No Debate'.

Honorable mention to Nic Williams who was practically doing this alone to start with.

@tootyfruitypickle

Stonewall are ridiculous not putting someone up. Says it all about them .

A crisis PR team probably have Nancy tied down like Gulliver with the Liliputians to stop her going on the media and finishing what she started last week.

It really is well worth listening to. The link is:

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000wrjn

but it won't be available till after 9am. Maybe try half 9 or 10. As the title above says, 7.51am so 1 hours 51 minutes in.