R4 now Tuesday 7.51 am

[somethinginoffensive]

Discussing Stonewall.

Justin Walsh gently hinting at the possibility that B Cohen had assumed he was cis ... priceless!

Webb was making the point that Cohen will assume someone is cis rather than trans one minute and the next will say assuming someone's "gender identity" is akin to violence. In other words, Webb was pointing out that Cohen is a hypocrite, and was doing this to get under his skin. It worked but neat tricks like that could see Webb removed from this topic.

@Notagain20

I didn't mind there being three men talking about women's rights this time - partly because I was just so happy to hear BC making a massive fool of himself, and partly (sadly, obvs) because people (esp men) are far more likely to listen to men discussing this than to women.

Much harder to dismiss as 'wimmin's issues'

I'd prefer at least one woman as an absolute minimum but I know what you mean. My caveat would be that the three men focussing women's issue need to know what a woman is.

Cohen doesn't see women, I think he thinks they are irrelevant to his life (except when he wants one to grow and birth a baby for him, or needs an egg to make one) - he didn't know that Liz Truss is the Minister for Women and Equalities, he thought her title was just 'Equalities'.

If a man is going to be talking about women he really needs to know that women exist.

If you're interested, have a search for Justin Webb and on the MN search page tick the topic Feminism Chat. He's been engaged on this issue since at least 2018.

What a total car crash. Justin clearly so totally sick of his shit 😄 Fanshawe was great. It was surprising, and moving, to hear a man talk with conviction about women's right to single sex spaces

It worked but neat tricks like that could see Webb removed from this topic.

I hope not, and I don’t think so now, actually. (It would have done even a year ago).

I know some politicians go on about “gotcha” type questions on the Today programme, but letting BC demonstrate his hypocrisy wasn’t a neat trick or a gotcha, it was just allowing the interviewee to reveal the reality of his point of view.

Benjamin Cohen did actually make a stand-up job of representing Stonewall's POV when I come to think about it…

@Horizons83

It was amazing, I only wish they had challenged the lie that Stonewall aren’t trying to abolish single sex spaces. But to be fair there wasn’t much chance to challenge anything!

Yes, though many Radio 4 listeners will probably have encountered this for real in their work or recreation places by now, and now see what lies behind it.

@EmbarrassingAdmissions

Benjamin Cohen did actually make a stand-up job of representing Stonewall's POV when I come to think about it…

And Pink News… he was the personification of their ranting nasty idiocy.

@Lottapianos

What a total car crash. Justin clearly so totally sick of his shit 😄 Fanshawe was great. It was surprising, and moving, to hear a man talk with conviction about women's right to single sex spaces

It was surprising, and moving, to hear a man talk with conviction about women's right to single sex spaces Yes - though there aren't enough of them.

And too many men happy to seize the chance of supposed cover for their misogyny.

@NecessaryScene

I think a big turning point has been that when GC people have got on the media, they have all had a lot of media training (or look as if they have)

What a horrible thing to say :) On the contrary, they mostly seem quite normal...

It's the other side who would need the media training to cover up how incoherent they are. The politicians supporting it usually have that training and manage to waffle/fudge, but people like Cohen and Butterworth just let the nonsense flow.

Shame for them the Today programme really isn't Twitter. No doubt managed to raise a few more bushy eyebrows across the land.

The irony is Benjamin Cohen shouldn't need media training, as he used to be a reporter for Channel 4 News a few years ago.

I was in the car with my 12 year old DS listening to this ........he heard swear words that he had never heard uttered by his dear Ma before .

Well done Pink News guy (didn't catch your name, sorry old chap)........you really did do us all a favour by being so inept in setting out your stall.

Lovely job mate! Keep it up!

Good point from nauticant -
"nauticant Tue 08-Jun-21 09:06:45

Justin Walsh gently hinting at the possibility that B Cohen had assumed he was cis ... priceless!

Webb was making the point that Cohen will assume someone is cis rather than trans one minute and the next will say assuming someone's "gender identity" is akin to violence. In other words, Webb was pointing out that Cohen is a hypocrite, and was doing this to get under his skin. It worked but neat tricks like that could see Webb removed from this topic."

At last people seem to be starting to understand the real issues here although no women on it (never mind a trans person). Just men talking for us as ever.

Would it be worth politely emailing r4 about the lie about single-sex spaces?

I wish someone would have pulled up on being able to self-id as any gender you like and others having to respect that yet calling yourself GC and not transphobic gets redefined for you, out loud, by people who don't believe you are what you say you are.

I always try to see these media things from the perspective of someone who has had next to no involvement in any of this and is coming to it completely cold while listening in the car or whatever.

I think the most notable thing about this segment was that Simon Fanshawe was calmly talking about the need for an open discussion about rights and any problems arising from a clash, but Benjamin Cohen was SO QUICK to make it personal and behave as though he was mortally offended and JW was committing several human rights abuses merely by hosting the interview.

I think people in general are heartily sick of this "how very dare you" minefield and have lost patience with university graduates who claim victimhood, while denouncing others from their high profile media platform in their white, educated, middle class voices. It's the phenomenon identified by Lucy Mcdonagh of the Deptford Project way back in 2015 - That’s what ‘self-identify’ means: anyone can say they are anyone… So, rich, privileged people can claim to be marginalized.

It seemed to me that BC absolutely encapsulated the 'you can't say that' culture - or you have to prove your credentials before you're allowed to voice an opinion. People are losing patience with that. More and more people want, and are willing, to discuss the Emperor's sartorial choices and the derailing and merailing just doesn't work anymore.

Thank you for flagging this.

I did some air punches to that segment!

Me too, GlomOfNit. Me too All the way down the lane where I was walking and listening in to this excellent segment.

My 13 year old DD heard it too and while she has slowly been coming round to my pov on this, the 'lovely' Pink News guy certainly pushed her over the line!

"Number one you don't know anything about me"

Awesome!

@EmbarrassingAdmissions

BBC could choose to have Miranda Yardley, Rose of Dawn et al to come on and give their views. & their opposite counterparts.

Both of those would be excellent choices - I know the latter in particular is not aligned with a GC viewpoint.

Of course, there's always Stephen Whittle. It's rather sad that I can't think of another trans man with a public profile in the UK.

However, as stated above, this was a section about women's rights although the whole thing ended up being about the empty chair (Stonewall).

Freddie McConnell. Fox is non-binary, I think.

I feel Chase Strangio would be an even better interviewee than BC, based on performance on Twitter, but Chase is US-based.

Didn't realise it was such a short piece!
Things I liked:
SF getting in right from the start that it's self-id as the basis in LAW which is being campaigned for. Think this will wake people up as being more than just being kind.
Saying "required" to compete with a male sports person. Again, illustrates the lack of choice.
"You don't know anything about me"
BC just... lying? Or deliberately pretending not to know what JW means by 'women-only'?
JW pulling up on the GC not being transphobic and being able to quote the anti-semitism interview.

BC seems like an absolute child who can't answer a very very basic question about what SW are campaigning for, which is handily written down by SW so we can all refer to it. This was excellent. "Which is worse, which is worse??"

The irony is Benjamin Cohen shouldn't need media training, as he used to be a reporter for Channel 4 News a few years ago.

Hmm - I suspect he might have fallen into the trap of hating all those media-trained politicians and their smarm, so he's decided he's going to "tell it like it is".

Makes perfect sense - as long as your argument makes sense. Otherwise, whoops...

I hope not, and I don’t think so now, actually. (It would have done even a year ago).

No, Justin Webb's been quietly chiselling away for a year or two now and has been able to be much more outspoken about it than any female BBC presenter. They have to allow him for balance, just as Emily Maitlis is occasionally allowed a sceptical eye roll on this subject.

Sounds like Justin was rather fed up with Ben and his non arguments by the end.

The irony of BC complaining about the lack of trans in the segment when he was the one (if memory serves) that was really flippin rude to Rose of Dawn when on a TV segment with her. Perhaps like Henry Higgins he is just rude to everyone. If they'd have had Rose or Debbie Hayton on, he would probably just said they were the wrong kind of trans or didn't speak for trans. Basically if you don't have people who agree with every word he says then they're the wrong kind of person and should not be on the media. He is "no debate" personified.

I didn't mind there were no women when SF put the points I would have like made and doing so reasonably and well. I am interested in ideas and rights not identity for identity's sake. I do very much mind though BC noticing there were no trans but not noticing there were no women.

Goodness, what a car crash

Cohen just sounded like Kevin the Teenager tbh. Shouting over Webb, making it all about him, trying and failing miserably to get some kind of 'gotcha' and...oh yes...lying through his teeth. Silly little boy.

Everyone currently uninvested in this issue will have listened to that and come away with the opinion that the GC standpoint is calm, robust, humane and sensible, and that the TRA lobby are whiny narcissists who can barely string a sentence together.

What a glorious own goal for Penis News.