R4 now Tuesday 7.51 am

[somethinginoffensive]

Discussing Stonewall.

Just caught this - laugh out loud funny.
Thank you Justin for not taking any nonsense,
Thank you Simon for distilling the discussion into key issues.

And Ben, we can't thank you enough for showing just how ridiculous your argument is. You proved the feminist point perfectly.

Benjamin Cohen is making such a tit of himself

Doing more than that - he was either lying or disastrously misinformed about Stonewall policies about:

• self-id
• getting rid of the protected characteristic 'sex' in the Equalities Act
• getting rid of single-sex spaces

I hope the LGB Alliance makes a complaint about his lies bad information.

I saw a lot of Twitter comments that JW interrupted BC and was abrasive.

Which he wasn't at all. Just kept the discussion on track (as far as he was able with BC who didn't answer a straight question, but instead just propagandised and attempted to put the others on the spot (didn't succeed). If anything it was BC doing the interrupting (and talking over).

That interview is the gift that keeps on giving - BC incensed that no trans people were at the table but fails to notice that, ironically, there were no women there either (unless potentially Justin was identifying as a woman today).
Thanks to the poster who reminded me to sign up to the LGB Alliance!

Wow - Gender critical = Transphobic. Amazing to get on national radio and effectively say that women absolutely cannot discuss the impact of trans rights on women's rights without being labelled as transphobic.

Oh, I did enjoy that

Benjamin does not interview well.

www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m000wrjn

at 01:50:30

available for 29 days

(In case no-one else has put it up - am only on page 2)

@MsFogi

Wow - Gender critical = Transphobic. Amazing to get on national radio and effectively say that women absolutely cannot discuss the impact of trans rights on women's rights without being labelled as transphobic.

Absolutely.

Is it possible to express any reservations about the goals and ambitions of trans supportive people and organisations without being “transphobic”, and if so, what would that look like?

For any social/ethical/rights issue, it ought to be possible to frame what respectful disagreement would look like. For example, I am passionately pro choice, but from what I know about the opposing position, I could outline what a respectful dissent from that position would look like (even if I ultimately obviously disagreed with it). I could do the same for equal marriage (and I have gay friends who do exactly that), and any number of other issues I can think of.

Per Benjamin’s worldview though, that’s not possible to do here. It is not possible to have questions about any of this without being branded a bigot by people like Benjamin. That’s not the sign of a reasonable position.

@MsFogi

Wow - Gender critical = Transphobic. Amazing to get on national radio and effectively say that women absolutely cannot discuss the impact of trans rights on women's rights without being labelled as transphobic.

Gender uncritical = misogynistic & homophobic?

There must be a transweb which sends out information telling their allies that these are the facts:

• transwomen do not pose any threats to women and children, and

never , ever will.

• Self-id happens anyway, so it doesn't make any difference
• transwomen can represent women and that's fine
• women are fine with all of this and those who aren't are just

exaggerating

• transwomen are only safe in women's spaces

All of this brought before the W&E committee and repeated everywhere. There's more but can't think of it

I heard that this morning. What a lunatic that guy was!

Personally, I’m fully supportive of Benjamin’s role as a spokesperson on this topic, he’s exactly the man for the job, and I can’t wait to hear more from him

Just listened

I agree Sophocles. We could say he should be promoted ASAP !! I definitely want to hear a LOT more from him and others saying the same.

Personally, I’m fully supportive of Benjamin’s role as a spokesperson on this topic, he’s exactly the man for the job, and I can’t wait to hear more from him

Oh. Definitely. Do more Benjamin. Loving your work.

snide comments from Freddy about JW challenging BC about his use of the word cis. I mean, let’s face it Freddy, if anyone mis genders or mis calls you the wrath of the Furies descends in a red mist of pain and hurt feelingz.

We're back to this:

TRAs: "The most serious crime imaginable is not to validate someone's asserted identity."

The Internet: "I'm SuperStraight/SuperGay/SuperLesbian/SuperBi."

TRAs: "Your asserted identity is transphobic and is not valid."

@Erikrie

Personally, I’m fully supportive of Benjamin’s role as a spokesperson on this topic, he’s exactly the man for the job, and I can’t wait to hear more from him

Oh. Definitely. Do more Benjamin. Loving your work.

He's still in full rant mode on Twitter.

Goodness know how he or any of his allies can have listened to that and thought "good job mate, you really did us proud today".

I think even Nancy Kelly will have listened to that with her head in her hands wishing she'd accepted the invitation instead.

Omg just listened! Best interview ever!

Justin sighing all the way through, was hilarious!

The pink news guy, was embarrassing!

@Sophoclesthefox

Personally, I’m fully supportive of Benjamin’s role as a spokesperson on this topic, he’s exactly the man for the job, and I can’t wait to hear more from him

And I second this!! Please let him do more interviews!!

He's still in full rant mode on Twitter

Ha ha. Poor dear. He should go and lie down in a dark room with a cool flannel on his forehead. I trust it's all been rather too much for him. A terribly exhausting morning.

snide comments from Freddy about JW challenging BC about his use of the word cis. I mean, let’s face it Freddy, if anyone mis genders or mis calls you the wrath of the Furies descends in a red mist of pain and hurt feelingz.

The idea that it’s possible to accept the reality of sex while rejecting imposed gender is heresy.

Stonewall couldn't send anyone to debate. From what I remember, Denton's advice was no debate and stealth, so Benjamin was demonstrating to us all, why no debate is essential (as so many of you have pointed out) and his idea of stealth was a little skewwhiff too

Just listened to it. Wow BC was even worse than I could have imagined, what the hell was that??? I get the feeling he is not a regular listener of the Today Programme - FYI Ben, ranting, straw man arguments, deflecting from the point, refusing to answer questions is how you are clearly used to engaging, but away from Twitter and in the real world, on a grown up show like the Today Programme, people conduct themselves slightly differently.

It's true that #nodebate is definitely over though!

@ifIwerenotanandroid

www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m000wrjn

at 01:50:30

available for 29 days

(In case no-one else has put it up - am only on page 2)

Thanks for that

Wow

What an extraordinary tour de force from Ben Cohen there! He came across as a gibbering, frothing nincompoop, didn’t he.

And Justin Webb was excellent. You could almost think the capture of the BBC was loosening, listening to that.