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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

If you avoid the feminist section then at least read this article

733 replies

RedthroatedCaracara · 06/06/2021 11:20

because all females need to be aware of this

And there's no need to have an attack of the vapours because it's a Daily Mail link. For all their multitude of shortcomings, the Mail at least have the guts to publish articles that stand up for women and girls.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
26
Datun · 07/06/2021 21:00

ANewCreation

Bravo!!!

Dione2594 · 07/06/2021 21:16

@Warmduscher

No. I dont agree with the majority of the article, but I theorized a middleground.

Dione2594 · 07/06/2021 21:16

I mean I agree that erasing sex-relating things are not good

Warmduscher · 07/06/2021 21:26

I don’t understand what you mean.

Are you saying women should compromise by allowing men to say they are breast feeding when they are holding a baby and feeding it from a bottle?

Datun · 07/06/2021 21:37

Just in case, and in the unlikely event, the people are still unaware that this is an attack on women, not men, I have copied a post from another current thread.

You don't have to read the links particularly far, just the first sentence in each will suffice.

Horizons83

And to all those who think this attack on language is nothing against women, and it goes both ways...

Medical definition of male:
www.medicinenet.com/male/definition.htm

Medical definition of female:
www.medicinenet.com/female/definition.htm

snekkes · 07/06/2021 21:40

@Pumperthepumper, I believe the local custom is to offer Flowers and possibly Gin for such excellence.

(Not sarcasm!)

LangClegsInSpace · 07/06/2021 21:42

Long post, not sorry.

Over the past few months, loads of women have been working incredibly hard making FOI requests to public sector organisations that are Stonewall Diversity Champions.

A few times in the responses I have seen the suggestion, either by Stonewall or by the participating org, that more effort should be made to introduce gender neutral language to policies, documents and communications, including removing terms such as 'woman' and 'mother'.

No, I didn't save links to these particular responses, there's just so much data it's overwhelming and nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition. I believe Sex Matters are planning a database or something to crunch it all into something meaningful. When this additional hard work has been done, by more women, it may be possible to give a straightforward answer to 'how widespread is this?', whether we're talking about erasure of female terminology or any other aspect of what stonewall has done.

This will take a while. It's a lot of work, women are fitting it in around already busy lives and none of them are being paid. I believe Sex Matters are looking for volunteers to help with this if you're interested.

In the meantime, here's what I've done for you, Pumper, to help you get started on your own research:

--------
Here's Stonewall's top 100 in their Workplace Equality Index:

www.stonewall.org.uk/full-list-top-100-employers-2020

We can safely assume that all these organisations are also signed up members of the Diversity Champions racket. If you doubt this you are free to cross-check them all, I'm not doing that work for you. The full list is here:

sex-matters.org/stonewall-champions-list/

We can also safely assume that the higher up an organisation comes in this list, the more they have done to meet stonewall's requirements. That's just common sense, isn't it? If you doubt this, you will have a wonderful opportunity to gather evidence against this assumption in the course of your research.

So if we just look at the organisation at #100 and see what they're doing, we can assume that #'s 1-99 are doing even more, yes? See above for what to do if you have doubts about this.

The organisation at #100 is Public Health Wales, who unfortunately are playing silly fuckers with their FOI request:

www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/information_about_your_dealings_330#incoming-1771014

So I've been on their website and spent rather a lot of time trawling around, seeing what they're up to. This is what their public page on cervical screening says:

Who should have cervical screening?

If you are aged 25 to 64 and you have a cervix, you can have cervical screening. We will invite you for cervical screening if you are aged 25-64 and you are registered as female or unspecified with a GP surgery.

If you have a cervix but are registered as male, we will not be able to invite you for screening due to the current limitations of our database. You will need to arrange to have cervical screening with your GP or clinic

If we are told that you should not have screening, because you do not have a cervix, we will not invite you. This might be because you have had a hysterectomy, or because you are transgender.

phw.nhs.wales/services-and-teams/cervical-screening-wales/what-is-cervical-screening/

I refer you to the numerous posters upthread who have pointed out the issues this kind of obfuscatory language raises for people with learning disabilities, people who are not fluent in English and people with low levels of literacy.

This is a work in progress. We know this because Public Health Wales's Annual Equality Report for 2019-20 says:

6.5.2 Transgender Public Information Review

The Screening Engagement Team is leading a review of the screening based transgender information resources. An engagement review is being undertaken with people from the transgender community. The new resource development will be available in late 2020.

6.5.3 Cervical Screening Wales information review

Cervical Screening Wales has undertaken a review of its invitation information to ensure it’s inclusive of people who identify as non-binary and of people who have undergone gender reassignment. We are working towards removing gender specific references, replacing with gender neutral terminology by defining eligibility criteria as anyone with a cervix.

phw.nhs.wales/news/annual-equality-report-2019-20/

The info leaflets on this page still refer to women and girls:

phw.nhs.wales/services-and-teams/cervical-screening-wales/information-resources/information-leaflets-posters-downloads-and-accessible-information/

And of course you'll still be able to find references to women, girls and mothers in other places on the website. As if that's the fucking point. To their credit, Public Health Wales do appear to put a lot of effort into accessibility. I'd love to be a fly on the wall in the meetings where they discuss how to make their easy-read smear test leaflet stonewall compliant.

Their transitioning at work guidance is something else. It says:

3.1.4 Non-Binary people in law

Currently, neither the Equality Act nor the Gender Recognition Act cover non-binary people and those who do not identify with the gender binary of male and female. This policy and other related Public Health Wales policies are designed to go beyond the legal requirements and to be inclusive of non-binary people. (my bold)

and -

3.6.5 Use of facilities

Non-binary employees or those transitioning at work are entitled to use the facilities that align with their gender identity from the first day that they present in that gender. Employees cannot be asked to use alternative facilities, such as the disabled toilet, but they may decide themselves that they wish to do so. (my bolds)

phw.nhs.wales/about-us/policies-and-procedures/policies-and-procedures-documents/human-resources-policies/

Note the lack of an equality impact assessment, when they seem reasonably good at providing this for other policies.

And for the avoidance of doubt, Public Health Wales are really proud of their involvement with Stonewall. Here's what they said in their 2019-20 Quality Statement:

Stonewall Index

We took part in the Stonewall Workplace Equality Index (WEI) benchmarking exercise again this year. The WEI is the standard employers use to measure their progress on lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender inclusion in the workplace.

We were delighted to learn that we were placed 100th out of 502 organisations that took part. Since we started to take part in the Stonewall WEI we have made great improvements every year. In 2017 we were placed 338th, then in 2018 we jumped to 173. Our latest result means we are entering the Stonewall Top 100 Employers list for the first time.

This a clear indication of how we are becoming a more inclusive organisation and making big improvements every year. Although the WEI looks at how inclusive we are for LGBT+ staff, making further improvements means we can improve equality and inclusion across the business so we can continue to be more inclusive.

My bolds.

phw.nhs.wales/about-us/annual-report/

They claim that Stonewall's WEI is 'the standard' that employers use to measure LGBT workplace inclusion.

They claim that 'making further improvements' to meet Stonewall's demands means that they are improving equality and inclusion generally. If you want to demand evidence of every single claim Pumper, then demand evidence from Public Health Wales, because they don't seem to have done an equality impact assessment to back up this assertion.

---------

That's enough unpaid work from me.

If you doubt this is widespread then you can do your own similar research on the other 99 organisations that score even higher on the stonewall index than PHW. It's great you're interested in gathering evidence and please do come back and share your findings. We need all hands on deck.

At a quick glance around half the organisations on the list are public bodies. There are around 200 more public bodies who have paid to be part of Stonewall Diversity Champions but who have not made the list.

FOIs have been submitted to the vast majority of these. If you want to find out more then go to www.whatdotheyknow.com and search for:

'Information about your dealings with Stonewall [Extraneous material removed]'

There's a lot of data there to keep you busy but not all organisations have provided a sensible response so it's sometimes necessary to trawl deep into policy documents to get an idea of what an organisation has done and what they have planned. Even then, there will be a lot of material that is not publicly available.

Screenshotting random pages that still use words like 'woman' and 'mother' is not research. It looks lazy and facetious and the aim appears to be to tie women up in busy-work, running all over the internet to provide evidence in response to your demands.

Nobody's buying it. Help or get out of the way.

TofuDelights · 07/06/2021 21:44

ANewCreation, absolutely brava!! What an absolutely awesome post! Sorry, don't know how to quote but that should be pinned at the top of FWR.

I know it won't be but it bloody well deserves to be!!

Pumperthepumper · 07/06/2021 21:49

@LangClegsInSpace

Long post, not sorry.

Over the past few months, loads of women have been working incredibly hard making FOI requests to public sector organisations that are Stonewall Diversity Champions.

A few times in the responses I have seen the suggestion, either by Stonewall or by the participating org, that more effort should be made to introduce gender neutral language to policies, documents and communications, including removing terms such as 'woman' and 'mother'.

No, I didn't save links to these particular responses, there's just so much data it's overwhelming and nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition. I believe Sex Matters are planning a database or something to crunch it all into something meaningful. When this additional hard work has been done, by more women, it may be possible to give a straightforward answer to 'how widespread is this?', whether we're talking about erasure of female terminology or any other aspect of what stonewall has done.

This will take a while. It's a lot of work, women are fitting it in around already busy lives and none of them are being paid. I believe Sex Matters are looking for volunteers to help with this if you're interested.

In the meantime, here's what I've done for you, Pumper, to help you get started on your own research:

--------
Here's Stonewall's top 100 in their Workplace Equality Index:

www.stonewall.org.uk/full-list-top-100-employers-2020

We can safely assume that all these organisations are also signed up members of the Diversity Champions racket. If you doubt this you are free to cross-check them all, I'm not doing that work for you. The full list is here:

sex-matters.org/stonewall-champions-list/

We can also safely assume that the higher up an organisation comes in this list, the more they have done to meet stonewall's requirements. That's just common sense, isn't it? If you doubt this, you will have a wonderful opportunity to gather evidence against this assumption in the course of your research.

So if we just look at the organisation at #100 and see what they're doing, we can assume that #'s 1-99 are doing even more, yes? See above for what to do if you have doubts about this.

The organisation at #100 is Public Health Wales, who unfortunately are playing silly fuckers with their FOI request:

www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/information_about_your_dealings_330#incoming-1771014

So I've been on their website and spent rather a lot of time trawling around, seeing what they're up to. This is what their public page on cervical screening says:

Who should have cervical screening?

If you are aged 25 to 64 and you have a cervix, you can have cervical screening. We will invite you for cervical screening if you are aged 25-64 and you are registered as female or unspecified with a GP surgery.

If you have a cervix but are registered as male, we will not be able to invite you for screening due to the current limitations of our database. You will need to arrange to have cervical screening with your GP or clinic

If we are told that you should not have screening, because you do not have a cervix, we will not invite you. This might be because you have had a hysterectomy, or because you are transgender.

phw.nhs.wales/services-and-teams/cervical-screening-wales/what-is-cervical-screening/

I refer you to the numerous posters upthread who have pointed out the issues this kind of obfuscatory language raises for people with learning disabilities, people who are not fluent in English and people with low levels of literacy.

This is a work in progress. We know this because Public Health Wales's Annual Equality Report for 2019-20 says:

6.5.2 Transgender Public Information Review

The Screening Engagement Team is leading a review of the screening based transgender information resources. An engagement review is being undertaken with people from the transgender community. The new resource development will be available in late 2020.

6.5.3 Cervical Screening Wales information review

Cervical Screening Wales has undertaken a review of its invitation information to ensure it’s inclusive of people who identify as non-binary and of people who have undergone gender reassignment. We are working towards removing gender specific references, replacing with gender neutral terminology by defining eligibility criteria as anyone with a cervix.

phw.nhs.wales/news/annual-equality-report-2019-20/

The info leaflets on this page still refer to women and girls:

phw.nhs.wales/services-and-teams/cervical-screening-wales/information-resources/information-leaflets-posters-downloads-and-accessible-information/

And of course you'll still be able to find references to women, girls and mothers in other places on the website. As if that's the fucking point. To their credit, Public Health Wales do appear to put a lot of effort into accessibility. I'd love to be a fly on the wall in the meetings where they discuss how to make their easy-read smear test leaflet stonewall compliant.

Their transitioning at work guidance is something else. It says:

3.1.4 Non-Binary people in law

Currently, neither the Equality Act nor the Gender Recognition Act cover non-binary people and those who do not identify with the gender binary of male and female. This policy and other related Public Health Wales policies are designed to go beyond the legal requirements and to be inclusive of non-binary people. (my bold)

and -

3.6.5 Use of facilities

Non-binary employees or those transitioning at work are entitled to use the facilities that align with their gender identity from the first day that they present in that gender. Employees cannot be asked to use alternative facilities, such as the disabled toilet, but they may decide themselves that they wish to do so. (my bolds)

phw.nhs.wales/about-us/policies-and-procedures/policies-and-procedures-documents/human-resources-policies/

Note the lack of an equality impact assessment, when they seem reasonably good at providing this for other policies.

And for the avoidance of doubt, Public Health Wales are really proud of their involvement with Stonewall. Here's what they said in their 2019-20 Quality Statement:

Stonewall Index

We took part in the Stonewall Workplace Equality Index (WEI) benchmarking exercise again this year. The WEI is the standard employers use to measure their progress on lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender inclusion in the workplace.

We were delighted to learn that we were placed 100th out of 502 organisations that took part. Since we started to take part in the Stonewall WEI we have made great improvements every year. In 2017 we were placed 338th, then in 2018 we jumped to 173. Our latest result means we are entering the Stonewall Top 100 Employers list for the first time.

This a clear indication of how we are becoming a more inclusive organisation and making big improvements every year. Although the WEI looks at how inclusive we are for LGBT+ staff, making further improvements means we can improve equality and inclusion across the business so we can continue to be more inclusive.

My bolds.

phw.nhs.wales/about-us/annual-report/

They claim that Stonewall's WEI is 'the standard' that employers use to measure LGBT workplace inclusion.

They claim that 'making further improvements' to meet Stonewall's demands means that they are improving equality and inclusion generally. If you want to demand evidence of every single claim Pumper, then demand evidence from Public Health Wales, because they don't seem to have done an equality impact assessment to back up this assertion.

---------

That's enough unpaid work from me.

If you doubt this is widespread then you can do your own similar research on the other 99 organisations that score even higher on the stonewall index than PHW. It's great you're interested in gathering evidence and please do come back and share your findings. We need all hands on deck.

At a quick glance around half the organisations on the list are public bodies. There are around 200 more public bodies who have paid to be part of Stonewall Diversity Champions but who have not made the list.

FOIs have been submitted to the vast majority of these. If you want to find out more then go to www.whatdotheyknow.com and search for:

'Information about your dealings with Stonewall [Extraneous material removed]'

There's a lot of data there to keep you busy but not all organisations have provided a sensible response so it's sometimes necessary to trawl deep into policy documents to get an idea of what an organisation has done and what they have planned. Even then, there will be a lot of material that is not publicly available.

Screenshotting random pages that still use words like 'woman' and 'mother' is not research. It looks lazy and facetious and the aim appears to be to tie women up in busy-work, running all over the internet to provide evidence in response to your demands.

Nobody's buying it. Help or get out of the way.

Thank you very much for this, I will work my way through it.

Just to point out though, you’re the only person who has done this - absolutely nobody else has ‘run all over the internet to provide evidence’, except me. But I will happily read all of this information ASAP.

Dione2594 · 07/06/2021 22:12

@Warmduscher

It's a lot better than changing it to 'chest-milk', idk about anyone else but chest-milk sounds gross. I wont be feeding my baby 'chest-milk' and it is scientifically correct to call it breast milk because breasts aren't a woman only thing.

Honestly (I had to write a paper about this) erasing gender-roles is one thing, but you can't deny that gender-roles are developed from the physiological norm (heterosexual males and females). People who want to be inclusive need to understand that the norm stays and that children should first learn and understand 'normal' before moving on to more complex non-conforming concepts.
I will first raise my children to distinguish that males have a testicles and a penis and women have a uterus and vagina. Then afterwards teach them that there are people who are different and that it's alright to not be part of the 'norm'. I don't need to confuse children with concepts that their minds can misconstrue and cause anxiety. Kids should be kids, and I want to be a proud mom who gives birth in a maternity ward and breastfeeds, I'm not inferior for belonging to the norm. Its like people not using the correct pronouns, it would insult me if they call me "a human who has gestated a parasite" instead of 'mother'.

Warmduscher · 07/06/2021 22:29

It's a lot better than changing it to 'chest-milk

Those aren’t the only two options though.

“Man bottle-feeding baby” covers it, surely?

LangClegsInSpace · 07/06/2021 22:39

@Warmduscher

I’m really shocked at how you’ve gone on and on at the mother of an autistic child, trying to trip her up and wear her down when it’s clear that this is a personal and emotional issue for her, whereas for you it’s just a constant dismissive refrain of “not a widespread problem - nothing to see here”.

I wonder how many disenfranchised women it will take before you consider it worthy of your concern.

The answer is always n+1.

I agree, it's shocking.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/06/2021 22:49

There's a lot of data there to keep you busy but not all organisations have provided a sensible response so it's sometimes necessary to trawl deep into policy documents to get an idea of what an organisation has done and what they have planned. Even then, there will be a lot of material that is not publicly available.

Screenshotting random pages that still use words like 'woman' and 'mother' is not research. It looks lazy and facetious and the aim appears to be to tie women up in busy-work, running all over the internet to provide evidence in response to your demands.

Nobody's buying it. Help or get out of the way.

Well said.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/06/2021 22:52

Just to point out though, you’re the only person who has done this - absolutely nobody else has ‘run all over the internet to provide evidence’, except me.

As LangClegs pointed out, you haven't actually done anything of the sort. This is what you have done, and again it's not about the outcome (because women here are wise to your sort of "engagement") but the intention:

"Screenshotting random pages that still use words like 'woman' and 'mother' is not research. It looks lazy and facetious and the aim appears to be to tie women up in busy-work, running all over the internet to provide evidence in response to your demands."

LangClegsInSpace · 07/06/2021 22:53

Thank you very much for this, I will work my way through it.

Just to point out though, you’re the only person who has done this - absolutely nobody else has ‘run all over the internet to provide evidence’, except me. But I will happily read all of this information ASAP.

Well it took me FUCKING HOURS and the only reason I indulged your unreasonable demands is because it served as a useful distraction from a screaming fight with my sister over what happens with my Mum's ashes and how the hell we deal with the sale of her house now we've discovered it's riddled with subsidence.

Your demands are not reasonable. Nobody sane or healthy would pander to them as I have done. You have no right to expect this of any woman here. Who do you think you are?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/06/2021 22:55

LangClegsInSpace Thanks sorry about your mum.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 07/06/2021 23:01
Flowers

So sorry to hear that.

RufustheBadgeringReindeer · 07/06/2021 23:04

So sorry lang 💐

Datun · 07/06/2021 23:14

So sorry to hear your sad news LangClegsInSpace 💐

Pumperthepumper · 07/06/2021 23:38

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Just to point out though, you’re the only person who has done this - absolutely nobody else has ‘run all over the internet to provide evidence’, except me.

As LangClegs pointed out, you haven't actually done anything of the sort. This is what you have done, and again it's not about the outcome (because women here are wise to your sort of "engagement") but the intention:

"Screenshotting random pages that still use words like 'woman' and 'mother' is not research. It looks lazy and facetious and the aim appears to be to tie women up in busy-work, running all over the internet to provide evidence in response to your demands."

Still more than you did.
Pumperthepumper · 07/06/2021 23:39

@LangClegsInSpace

Thank you very much for this, I will work my way through it.

Just to point out though, you’re the only person who has done this - absolutely nobody else has ‘run all over the internet to provide evidence’, except me. But I will happily read all of this information ASAP.

Well it took me FUCKING HOURS and the only reason I indulged your unreasonable demands is because it served as a useful distraction from a screaming fight with my sister over what happens with my Mum's ashes and how the hell we deal with the sale of her house now we've discovered it's riddled with subsidence.

Your demands are not reasonable. Nobody sane or healthy would pander to them as I have done. You have no right to expect this of any woman here. Who do you think you are?

I’m sorry about your mum, I hope things improve for you soon.

I’m hiding this thread now.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/06/2021 23:40

I think that response says all anyone needs to know, Pumper. I told you why I wouldn't indulge your whims. And I feel it was correct.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/06/2021 23:41

And no, screenshotting things that prove nothing and claiming them as definitive proof is worse than providing no "evidence" at all.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 08/06/2021 00:25

Screenshot from Biden's budget

Something particularly horrific about calling women who die from maternity complications "birthing people". Isn't medical misogyny and dismissiveness towards women, particularly women from ethnic minorities, why women die from preventable causes?

How does dehumanising women improve this situation?

If you avoid the feminist section then at least read this article
Rejoiningperson · 08/06/2021 00:36

Thanks for the link. Read it. Slightly impressed with the Daily Mail which is shocking. Many woman friends of mine have been quietly murmuring their discomfort for a while, including me.