Best responses for being asked for pronouns in person

[Seraphinite]

I’m going to a residential training course (not UK) and I suspect they will ask us for pronouns when we introduce ourselves on day one. (I’ve been to something with this organization before and have seen it)

What are some good responses I can give? Is saying ‘I prefer not to say’ best?

I don’t want to draw attention to it, be adversarial or open up discussion, I just don’t want to answer.

(For avoidance of doubt, I don’t buy in to gender ideology so that’s why I don’t want to answer. To me, stating my pronouns indicates I think it’s an ok question to ask in the first place )

What harm does it do? I find the implication that I identify with a certain gender identity offensive. I am a woman and a feminist. I do not identify with any gender because gender is harmful and oppressive. I do not have preferred pronouns because they suggest I support the concept that gender is innate. Everyone in the world is non-binary, in the sense that none have male or female personalities. If I declare my pronouns I am supporting something I believe is harmful, particularly to women and girls who are being forced back into the 'girl' box.

@ValancyRedfern

What harm does it do? I find the implication that I identify with a certain gender identity offensive. I am a woman and a feminist. I do not identify with any gender because gender is harmful and oppressive. I do not have preferred pronouns because they suggest I support the concept that gender is innate. Everyone in the world is non-binary, in the sense that none have male or female personalities. If I declare my pronouns I am supporting something I believe is harmful, particularly to women and girls who are being forced back into the 'girl' box.

Yeh screenshotting this, thanks

@ValancyRedfern

What harm does it do? I find the implication that I identify with a certain gender identity offensive. I am a woman and a feminist. I do not identify with any gender because gender is harmful and oppressive. I do not have preferred pronouns because they suggest I support the concept that gender is innate. Everyone in the world is non-binary, in the sense that none have male or female personalities. If I declare my pronouns I am supporting something I believe is harmful, particularly to women and girls who are being forced back into the 'girl' box.

I agree

The pronouns stuff is just unnecessary. One of my colleagues has come out as trans aba chosen an obviously female name and female dress. Once introduced as ‘Gemma’, the pronouns are obvious. I make Gemma comfortable by using her new name.

If you believe in stating pronouns to show you are an ‘ally’, do you also wear a headscarf to make your muslim colleagues more comfortable?

“Wonder Woman or Super Man. You chose”

[quote Chrysanthemum5]@LurcherLot pronouns are just grammar if you let people pick which ones they use, it's compelled speech if someone control how you refer to them when they are not even present. Also it's a barrier for people who aren't comfortable in English. It's a barrier for neurodiverse people. And research shows use of pronouns makes a more hostile working environment for women. So this pronoun announcement is not harmless in any way [/quote]
I am neurodiverse, I don't struggle with pronouns, nor does any other neurodivsrse person I know, nor does any ESL speaker I know. Pronouns are a basic part of speaking English, if you struggle with them, then it's unlikely that your English skills are good enough to function in an English-speaking workplace. I suspect you are making up concerns on behalf of groups you don't actually have any business speaking for.

Can you cite this research which proves that stating pronouns in meetings is hostile to women? This doesn't seem to make sense since, as others have pointed out, most of the time women are easy to identify as such even if they don't share their pronouns.

Well that's you but I work with a lot of people who are not fluent in English and having to remember different pronouns does make it harder for them. And also lots of neurodiverse people find it hard when people use pronouns that don't match their sex. And there is a lot of research that shows that women are treated more harshly in environments where there are reminders of biological sex (such as pronouns). You may not choose to believe it that's up to you - but don't assume that because you are ok with pronouns they are fine for everyone with no negative consequences

@WeeSisters

The pronouns stuff is just unnecessary. One of my colleagues has come out as trans aba chosen an obviously female name and female dress. Once introduced as ‘Gemma’, the pronouns are obvious. I make Gemma comfortable by using her new name.

If you believe in stating pronouns to show you are an ‘ally’, do you also wear a headscarf to make your muslim colleagues more comfortable?

It doesn't always work that simply, though, does it? If you see a woman with short hair in jeans, do you assume they must be a trans man? Sometimes names don't clarify because a lot of names are gender neutral. And some men do prefer to wear stereotypically feminine clothes, it doesn't necessarily mean they are trans. I thought the gender critical take was that people ought to be able to wear and present exactly what they want; this doesn't square with automatically assuming someone who's non-gender conforming must be trans.

With Stonewall out in some places we might see a reversal of this in the same way.

"My name" that would be my answer

If you see a woman in jeans and short hair you assume it's a woman in jeans and short hair

Especially IRL people are very good at getting sex correct even when people try to. Hide it never mind if they are not

Do any non English speaking countries do this?

@Chrysanthemum5

Well that's you but I work with a lot of people who are not fluent in English and having to remember different pronouns does make it harder for them. And also lots of neurodiverse people find it hard when people use pronouns that don't match their sex. And there is a lot of research that shows that women are treated more harshly in environments where there are reminders of biological sex (such as pronouns). You may not choose to believe it that's up to you - but don't assume that because you are ok with pronouns they are fine for everyone with no negative consequences

An ESL speaker would already have learned he/him, she/her, they/them as a beginner to the language, there's not any requirement for them to learn new pronouns, just the same ones they already know. There's no reason at all it should be any harder for them than anyone else. It's not like trans people don't exist outside English speaking countries either, so I don't know why you'd assume the concept would be particularly hard for someone just because they're ESL.

I didn't say I didn't believe the research, I asked you to cite it so I could look at it myself. Can you cite it?

Oh ffs you learn a word you learn it's meaning

I have never had difficulty identifying someone’s sex. It is instinctual, and even if appearance doesn’t give it away, how someone walks does or the sound of their voice. It is really not a mystery that humankind have struggled with.

But I do find the pronouns at work issue toxic. Pronouns assert that gender identity trumps biological sex, and requires colleagues to show they are an ‘ally’ or risk being seen as bigot if they think sex is real and it matters.

That is a political stance which, like all political stances, has no place in the workplace.

Well said

I wouldn't say 'I don't have a preference' because I do. I expect people to be able to work out for themselves to use she/ her when talking about me. I suppose I would object to being asked. It's a bit like introducing yourself as your dc's parent and then being asked if you are the mother or the father.

Deeds, not words.

Or LurcherLot you could just say
'Ah, this is Lucy who works in HR and is our fundraising lead. Lucy is also famous in the office for baking and makes an amazing brownie, let me tell you Lucy is really the best. Let me just leave you getting to know each other and I'll catch up with you both later.'
Two repetitions of the name instead of eight.

"is this a trick question?"

@LurcherLot

The harm it causes is if you're the one person in the group who does have to specify their pronouns because it really isn't obvious from your physical appearance then it's potentially more embarrassing and awkward for that person, and draws attention to them and might make them feel singled out.

That person may be trans, or they may not be.

How would it not be obvious from their physical appearance? It's really easy to tell and if someone is unsure they can just use that person's name.

I’m a woman and look like one. But I’d be tempted to say ‘he/him’ because it’s self I’d right? Just to see the disbelief/cognitive dissonance.

@AlwaysTawnyOwl

I’m a woman and look like one. But I’d be tempted to say ‘he/him’ because it’s self I’d right? Just to see the disbelief/cognitive dissonance.

Uh right, except the most likely outcome is people will not react with disbelief, will take you at your word, and call you he/him without question, and then you'd be stuck with it (or face the awkward conversation of having to walk it back) for as long as you know these people, which if it's a work thing, could be a long time.

An ESL speaker would already have learned he/him, she/her, they/them as a beginner to the language, there's not any requirement for them to learn new pronouns, just the same ones they already know.

Lots of people with English as a foreign language at my workplace. Can confirm that some with a pretty good standard of English struggle enormously with some grammar rules and regularly and blithely muddle up she/he/her/his.

Jesus, LurcherLot, your posts are so humourless!