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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Best responses for being asked for pronouns in person

312 replies

Seraphinite · 05/06/2021 23:33

I’m going to a residential training course (not UK) and I suspect they will ask us for pronouns when we introduce ourselves on day one. (I’ve been to something with this organization before and have seen it)

What are some good responses I can give? Is saying ‘I prefer not to say’ best?

I don’t want to draw attention to it, be adversarial or open up discussion, I just don’t want to answer.

(For avoidance of doubt, I don’t buy in to gender ideology so that’s why I don’t want to answer. To me, stating my pronouns indicates I think it’s an ok question to ask in the first place )

OP posts:
Ereshkigalangcleg · 08/06/2021 11:20

In my workplace, it is heavily male dominated. In a board meeting, a senior white man declaring himself a man by asserting he/him is at best neutral but really an assertion of power. Me, as one of the more junior people in the room and one of the few women, having to declare she/her is basically subordinating myself.

Unless you think misogyny does not exist, then declaring one's sex in public is NOT a neutral act.

This is an excellent point.

Blibbyblobby · 08/06/2021 14:54

@IntermittentParps

Blibby, I think your post is very clear and persuasive. Can I ask – genuinely; I am woefully underinformed/have underthought about this issue and am trying to get my head round it – How is Trans Orthodoxy as the "only" way to accept and support trans people 'simply wrong'? How does it require 'those of us who are not trans to lie about ourselves and who we are'?

Again, absolutely genuine questions not a bid to start a fight. I would really welcome a discussion/some explanation on this.

Hi Intermittent

How does it require 'those of us who are not trans to lie about ourselves and who we are'?

I wrote a post in another thread that explains my thinking. It’s posted 00:58 on the page below:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a4204312-I-had-the-most-awful-row-with-my-teenagers-yesterday?msgid=106142510#106142510

How is Trans Orthodoxy as the "only" way to accept and support trans people 'simply wrong'?

Trans Orthodoxy is “TW are women, TM are men, sex is mostly irrelevant to life outcomes other than directly medical (unless one is trans because sex is fundamental to an identity as trans), self id is authoritative, sufficient and cannot be questioned, debate is transphobic, children must be affirmed without question, medical transition is not required but unproblematic when chosen”.

An alternative way to support trans people might be “Gender is constricting, TM and TW are reacting to unhealthy gender constructs, gender should be challenged, TM and TW should be embraced for their differences not treated as a problem to fix by changing their gender”

Or “Gender exists, sex also exists, some trans identities are deep seated lifetime dysphoria and some are a reaction to unhealthy gender constructs, debate is needed to work out when we need to consider gender and when we need to consider sex, children must be supported in accepting themselves and protected from gender stereotypes, medical transition is a last resort”

Or “TWAW and TWAM and always have been, we are genuinely wrong in our understanding of man and woman, all our current single-sex stuff isn’t fit for purpose, slapping the word “gender” over “sex” but keeping everything else the same isn’t sufficient, we need to go back and redesign it all from scratch with the understanding that gender groups are mixed-sex and therefore, for example, women prisoners can rape each other.

And practical solutions other than Trans Orthodoxy could include third spaces, having equal but unrelated genders for sex, social and legal which apply in different circumstances, recognising gender non-confirming children are the norm not the exception, challenging gender stereotyping and presentation in the media rather than just moving bodies between stereotypes

…or many others.

To be clear, I am not suggesting I have the answers. These are just off the top of my head, simplified examples. Each one could be an essay in its own right and there must be loads of other good, respectful and supportive alternatives in other people’s heads as well

The point I was making is that Trans Orthodoxy doesn’t allow us to even explore these approaches, because it has set itself up as the only possible way to support trans people when it isn’t.

UnderTheSkyInsideTheSea · 09/06/2021 07:39

@Blibbyblobby

Related to the above:

Something I've learned over the years is to be very careful about when and how you take up someone else's cause as your own.

Because you can fight for someone else, but you can't compromise for them.

So there is always a risk that if too many allies join a cause which is not their own, albeit from a genuine and laudable desire to help and make things better, they become a force for polarisation and extremism.

That doesn't mean allies should stay out of it - of course not! A demand for fairness and justice should always be supported by more than just the people directly involved.

What it means is that allies should be careful that in their desire to support and do the right thing, they don't shout so loud that their voices drown out the very people they are trying to empower, taking away those people's agency to define their own best outcome.

This is such a a wise and insightful post, @Blibbyblobby. 👏
IntermittentParps · 09/06/2021 09:28

Thanks Blibby, for your generosity in writing more, and for pointing me to the other thread.

One immediate question on lying about ourselves and who we are: on the other thread you say 'I can call the male-bodied person "He" and misgender them, or I can call them "She" and misgender myself.'
Is to call them 'She' actually to misgender yourself? Or simply to properly gender them?

I don't immediately see how this is lying to yourself. If you're in a group where all are required to state how they want to be referred to, as long as you get to say 'she/her' when it's your turn, is that not the truth?

I completely agree when you say 'My conception of myself as a woman is (1) a female body, which just is, (2) having to deal with a whole load of society-driven shit that comes with the female body, most of which I don't want which is why I'm a feminist'. I have also always lived with the reality of a female body and, as you put it, 'the stuff society loads on top of it.'

I wonder if we can imagine and allow for a different conception of being a woman; that is to say, someone in a male body who in some way(s) feels like a woman? (I do realise that the idea of 'feeling like a woman' could and probably should invite a fair bit of unpacking).

I also agree with your ideas on alternative ways to support trans people and on how there is more than one kind of trans identity; and on the possibility that our current approach isn’t fit for purpose.

NewlyGranny · 09/06/2021 09:36

If you find yourself "in a group where all are required to state how they want to be referred to", Intermittent Parps, you're already in deep trouble.

It's one thing inviting people to express a preference, but requiring them to is outing.
It smacks of McCarthyism and that movement's "Are you now or have you ever been..?" hostile interrogations.

dementedma · 09/06/2021 10:02

Blibbyblobby's post on Monday about Trans Orthodoxy absolutely nailed it. Thank you. It articulates perfectly what I have been trying to say in work or in fora where I am labelled a Transphobe and a Terf. Thank you

IntermittentParps · 09/06/2021 12:08

It's one thing inviting people to express a preference, but requiring them to is outing.
It smacks of McCarthyism and that movement's "Are you now or have you ever been..?" hostile interrogations.
I take your point.
But maybe I just used the wrong word. 'required' is my term; the OP only says 'I suspect they will ask us for pronouns'. Which puts a bit of a different spin on it.

Eresh, apologies but I don't understand 'to lie about something they think is toxic.' Is it lying to say 'I'm a woman so please refer to me as she/her'?
I can see the argument for it being 'compelled speech', perhaps, but if you know you're a woman in a female body, is saying this a lie?

GoldenBlue · 09/06/2021 12:33

If I'm asked for gender pronouns it would be a lie to give any as I do not have a gender.

To respond stating that I don't have a gender would 'out' me as gender critical with all of the potential negative consequences of being labelled a TERF etc.

If I was asked for the pronouns I prefer, or how I would prefer to be addressed (excluding the word gender) then I could answer without being put in that situation.

I am not anti trans and I will call everyone by the term of address that they prefer as that is polite but I wont proclaim a gender as I perceive them as old fashioned stereotypes that hamper and constrain people

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/06/2021 12:47

If I'm asked for gender pronouns it would be a lie to give any as I do not have a gender.

To respond stating that I don't have a gender would 'out' me as gender critical with all of the potential negative consequences of being labelled a TERF etc.

Exactly.

IntermittentParps · 09/06/2021 12:49

OK. I hadn't appreciated the gender/sex distinction, to my slight shame. So it's the way the question is asked that's the real issue here, because that reveals the questioner's position?

GoldenBlue · 09/06/2021 13:23

I'm not a fan of announced pronouns at all, as they can be detrimental to women. There is an interesting experiment that 2 people undertook with email communication where the male and female swapped email addresses.

The female experienced that she was listened to and her views were respected more, tasks were completed quicker and she felt it significantly improved the way people interacted with her.

The male experienced significant frustrations, patronising responses and doubt of his expertise.

After the experiment they moved to an anonymous generic email footer to improve working life for the female

Making everyone declare their sex and/or gender risks increased opportunities for discrimination against women. I'd prefer it wasn't a thing but am happy for those that present differently than they would prefer to be addresses to let me know so that I can tailor my language for them.

NewlyGranny · 09/06/2021 13:30

If anyone is asked to put preferred pronouns in their work email sign-off, it seems perfectly logical for women to us he/him/his and ask for an email address that uses initials, not names, e.g. jgbloggs@... rather than jennifergloriabloggs@... purely because it will boost efficiency and production, quoting the name swap study, which is now widely known.

PerditaCambellBlack · 09/06/2021 13:34

One of my twenty something sons has just started a job in the hospitality sector where, on the first day, they all had to share their preferred pronouns. He said “it’s total bullshit but I read the room and said I was a He”

MrsBongiovi · 09/06/2021 13:45

He said “it’s total bullshit but I read the room and said I was a He”

The room looks very different when you’re a woman.

PaleGreenGhost · 09/06/2021 13:52

@NewlyGranny

If anyone is asked to put preferred pronouns in their work email sign-off, it seems perfectly logical for women to us he/him/his and ask for an email address that uses initials, not names, e.g. jgbloggs@... rather than jennifergloriabloggs@... purely because it will boost efficiency and production, quoting the name swap study, which is now widely known.
Absolutely. Also less likely to receive unwanted personal stuff I reckon.
PaleGreenGhost · 09/06/2021 14:08

@IntermittentParps

OK. I hadn't appreciated the gender/sex distinction, to my slight shame. So it's the way the question is asked that's the real issue here, because that reveals the questioner's position?
It's the meaning of what is being asked that is the problem for me.

On the surface by asking for pronouns the asker wants to know what my gender ID is. This is an issue if you don't have a gender ID. The closest honest answer would be to say I was non binary but I'd never want to put people in the position of having to police their language in order to talk to me (I've adhd and know how hard it is to do this) and I'd never want to support a belief system that undermines single sex spaces.

The actual question hidden underneath, however, is "are you a believer in the current trans orthodoxy? ". So I'm left in a quandary where there is no safe truthful answer to give.

Being asked to identify as "cis" (which is what a female saying "she/her" automatically does) when one views the concept of gender as the system that oppresses women and has been responsible for so much pain and suffering is pretty unpalatable.

"Do you have preferred pronouns?" might be a better question. Then I could answer "no". And people with "cis" and trans identities could answer "yes....".

IntermittentParps · 09/06/2021 14:18

Thanks Pale.

The actual question hidden underneath, however, is "are you a believer in the current trans orthodoxy? ". So I'm left in a quandary where there is no safe truthful answer to give.
This makes a lot of sense to me put like that.

I agree that 'Do you have preferred pronouns?' is a better question. Open-ended. Not so loaded.

Blibbyblobby · 09/06/2021 14:51

Hi Intermittent

Is to call them 'She' actually to misgender yourself? Or simply to properly gender them?

I don't immediately see how this is lying to yourself. If you're in a group where all are required to state how they want to be referred to, as long as you get to say 'she/her' when it's your turn, is that not the truth?

I was actually asked a very similar question on the other thread! Here's my response: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a4204312-I-had-the-most-awful-row-with-my-teenagers-yesterday?msgid=106150248#106150248

(I hope you don't mind me giving you links. It seemed a bit silly to just copy and paste a whole chunk of text from one part of MN to other)

I wonder if we can imagine and allow for a different conception of being a woman; that is to say, someone in a male body who in some way(s) feels like a woman?

We could, but what purpose does doing that serve? If Woman doesn't capture any meaningful commonality between the two groups of people, why join them together at all? Seems to me it just means neither group gets what they really need.

Now if Woman was just an identity label like goth or geek that wouldn't matter, but it isn't. It's the name of an oppressed group under which they organise, support each other and share experiences that lead to naming and understanding their oppression. It's the name under which the data is collected about them that proves what the group is saying. It's the name which the laws and conventions that were intended to protect and support them were written. So when you make Woman essentially a meaningless term in that it captures no commonality of the group, you take all that away.

Speaking personally, I would have no issue identifying as agender and leaving the classification of Woman those who want it IF there was a new clasification created to do the old job of Woman-the-sex-class, and all the rights and protections, the understanding and analysis that pertain to Woman-the-sex-class were preserved under the new name. But that's not what Trans Orthodoxy offers.

Going back to pronouns, I always hated sex-based pronouns anyway. How can we ever be seen as people first, women second when our whole language requires us to be categorised, or indeed erased if there's men in the group as well? When I first heard about gender-neutral pronouns I thought "This is great! We can all use gender-neutral pronouns and chip away at one more brick in legacy patriarchy forced on us". In a "share your pronouns" situation they are the ones I'd want to use but I won't, because they've been positioned by Trans Orthodoxy to mean I See Myself as Neither Woman nor Man instead of My Sex Is Not Important Right Now.

Imagine if Trans Orthodoxy had pushed for everyone using gender neutral pronouns as a great way to both support trans people and reduce subconscous gender bias! I'd have been an ethusiastic adopter. But it didn't.

NewlyGranny · 09/06/2021 15:13

Pale green is right; the pronoun question is designed to screen the allies from the GC. It's less like "Are you now or have you ever been..." and more "Have you stopped beating your wife?"!

IntermittentParps · 09/06/2021 16:26

Blibby, I hope you don't mind me giving you links. It seemed a bit silly to just copy and paste a whole chunk of text from one part of MN to other
Not at all and thank you.

We could, but what purpose does doing that serve? If Woman doesn't capture any meaningful commonality between the two groups of people, why join them together at all? Seems to me it just means neither group gets what they really need. Perhaps the trans woman gets what she needs (wants); to be called a woman. Is it not meaningful for someone to be referred to as a woman if they feel they are a woman? And does that encroach on my (for example) woman-ness in the sense that I am a biological woman?

I take the point about 'Woman' as the name of an oppressed group under which they organise, support each other and share experiences that lead to naming and understanding their oppression/data is collected about them that proves what the group is saying/laws and conventions that were intended to protect and support them were written.
In terms of the law at least, though, is there an argument that trans women could/should be included in legislation regarding women?

How can we ever be seen as people first, women second when our whole language requires us to be categorised, or indeed erased if there's men in the group as well? In a face-to-face situation though, someone who looks like a woman (you'll appreciate I'm being general/perhaps reductive but you know what I mean) will be seen as as a woman first and a person second, no? As will a man.
Gender-neutral pronouns would make sense for things like job applications and email signoffs, certainly, in terms of showing up and perhaps lessening discrimination.

Imagine if Trans Orthodoxy had pushed for everyone using gender neutral pronouns as a great way to both support trans people and reduce subconscous gender bias! I'd have been an ethusiastic adopter. But it didn't.
Yes, sounds interesting to me too.

Another probably stupid question:
What is your stance on trans men? Some aspects of the trans debate are clearly weighted towards being a problem for women but not for men in that, e.g., women/girls are more likely to have experienced sexual violence at the hands of men and so safe spaces like changing rooms are vital.
I'm interested in whether there are aspects of the debate that disadvantage but not/more than women, and how one approaches that.

CharlieParley · 09/06/2021 16:55

OK. I hadn't appreciated the gender/sex distinction, to my slight shame. So it's the way the question is asked that's the real issue here, because that reveals the questioner's position?

In a way, yes. Some ways of asking are definitely better than others.

My position is however that if I answer the question, no matter how it is worded, I signal agreement with the doctrine of gender identity. That's an ideology I do not believe in, so I wouldn't want to participate in a pronoun round. In most cases I will say no thanks. But I cannot know if I can simply decline to answer, let alone voice open disagreement. Especially since the penalty for openly disagreeing with the doctrine can be severe.

And the other issue for me is that even if I believed in the doctrine, I would not feel comfortable with pronoun rounds, because they are designed to control the speech of others. With attached social penalties even for those who mis-pronoun only inadvertently.

But if you've grown up, as I have, in a country without freedom of expression (and belief), even a suggestion of a return to that way of living is a deeply uncomfortable, if not actually painful, proposition. And I might say I'm allergic to even a suggestion of controlled speech in regard to an ideology that I have concluded - after detailed inquiry and thorough consideration - is actively harmful to me.

FAOD, I would react in the same way if a meeting started with a common prayer. I have argued for years with my kids' schools about religious indoctrination and the lack of equal consideration for atheism. Freedom of expression and freedom of belief are paramount. Foundational.

And pronoun rounds are in my view a violation of both.

ConstanceMarkievicz · 09/06/2021 17:29

"So it's not ok to reject gender which is a stereotype but it is ok to reject sex? I need a day off to figure that out"

Blibbyblobby · 09/06/2021 19:31

Perhaps the trans woman gets what she needs (wants); to be called a woman.

But under Trans Orthodoxy she doesn't just want that though, does she? She wants to be accepted as a woman. For there to be no functional distinctions made, ever, for any reason, between her and people of the female sex unless it's directly concerned with the body.

It's certainly what Trans Orthodoxy thinks she needs, but is it really? Are there other ways she could have been supported and happy if this pernicious ideology had not told her that this is the only way she can feel valid, safe and happy? And that anyone who disagrees that she must have status as a woman hates her and wants her to suffer?

And even if it is exactly what she needs, does her need outweigh the need of female people to have a meaningful classification of themselves as a physical sex upon which they can pin their rights, support and analysis and make sense of their experiences? Do you think the needs of the male person outweigh the needs of the female?

Trans Orthodoxy says Yes. I say we need to find a way that accommodates both. Simply replacing the definition of Woman as a sex with Woman as a feeling is not good enough.

Is it not meaningful for someone to be referred to as a woman if they feel they are a woman? And does that encroach on my (for example) woman-ness in the sense that I am a biological woman?

That's the point I made in my original link. Yes it does, because it accepts that the biology of a woman is irrelevant to womaness (it has to be, because trans women don't have it) and therefore, womaness is a quality of the mind. Which (1) I utterly reject as deeply sexist, limiting and damaging to women (and men, incidentally); and (2) means by that definition I'm not a woman.

You seem to be positing that we square that circle by having two entirely separate classifications of woman with nothing in common But that renders the word Woman meaningless. It describes nothing, and it cannot be tested. Anyone can be a woman. And that renders any laws and protections attached to it meaningless as well. Perhaps you think that is a worthwhile cost for female people to bear in support of male. I don't. I want to find a better way.

In terms of the law at least, though, is there an argument that trans women could/should be included in legislation regarding women?

Sure. Absolutely. As long as we have evidence that trans women are statistically indistinguishable from female people: that they have the same opportunities, suffer the same limitations, suffer the same level of domestic and sexual violence, are abused and trafficked the same way, commit the same crimes at the same rate, have the same pay gap, take on the same amount of unpaid domestic and caring labour, are underrepresented in seats of economic, cultural and political power to the same degree, suffer the same workplace and social micro (and macro-) aggressions...show me the evidence for that and I'll campaign alongside you. But without that evidence, based simply the ideological assertion that they share an undefinable and undetectable womaness with me that I don't even recognise in myself? No.

In a face-to-face situation though, someone who looks like a woman (you'll appreciate I'm being general/perhaps reductive but you know what I mean) will be seen as as a woman first and a person second, no? As will a man. Gender-neutral pronouns would make sense for things like job applications and email signoffs, certainly, in terms of showing up and perhaps lessening discrimination.

You are missing the point a bit. It's more about which differences we highlight and which we don't. For example, we don't have different pronouns for blondes and brunettes. We do for sexes (or genders if you will). That is an assumption, running all the way through the culture of languages with male and female pronouns, that sex (or gender) is so core and significant to a person that you cannot talk about a person without disclosing their sex (or gender). So moving to neutral pronouns may not change anyone's knowledge of sex face to face but deprioritisting that knowledge by taking it out of everyday language chips away at the legacy patriarchy built.

What is your stance on trans men? Some aspects of the trans debate are clearly weighted towards being a problem for women but not for men in that, e.g., women/girls are more likely to have experienced sexual violence at the hands of men and so safe spaces like changing rooms are vital. I'm interested in whether there are aspects of the debate that disadvantage but not/more than women, and how one approaches that.

That's another essay. But briefly:

I think Trans Orthodoxy is harming trans men as well by claiming there is only one way they can be happy and I worry a lot about the huge increase in trans identifying teenage girls. I think Trans Orthodoxy is preventing analysis that might reveal a different problem or group of problems for a significant number of these these girls. I don't feel I can speak to the impact of trans men on men because I am not a man, but I think the power difference and especially the implicit nature of male power and privilege vs the explicit nature of female rights and protections* means that trans men do not pose the same existential risk to men as a class that trans women do to women.

(Another essay! The former comes from social and power structures that were formed under patriarchy to fit males, the latter from defined laws and rights, which means it's easy to make the latter apply to trans women simply by saying they do, while the former cannot simply be reassigned because there is no one place they are defined. After all, if we could just take male power for females by saying we shoudl have it Feminism could have shut up shop years ago!)

Talkwhilstyouwalk · 09/06/2021 22:37

Excuse my ignorance but please could someone explain. Is a trans woman a man by sex and a woman by gender or the other way around?

MaryJosephJesusAndTheWeeDonkey · 09/06/2021 22:52

@DdraigGoch

"Personally I prefer to refer to myself as 'I', though most other people refer to me as 'you', so that will probably suffice."
Epic response!
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