Are you put off booking a holiday in Scotland by the Marion Miller case and the Scottish police carping about stickers?

[ChristinaXYZ]

I know that the chances of being harassed by the police on holiday are minimal but the whole atmosphere: law changes, the SNP attitude to women, the police tweeting about stickers etc - would you really want to holiday in such a pool of chilling effects? It is really changing how I feel about Scotland (in the sense of those currently running it - I'm not blaming the average Scot obviously) and I know if I went there it would be on my mind all the time. Chilling effects do not equal a holiday feeling is what I am saying I guess.

@SoMuchForSummerLove I think it's to do with people not feeling safe now to do some sneaky stickering or graffiti on their long weekend in Edinburgh?
Or something

I guess!

Maybe I'll take a ton of Fuck Brexit stickers next time I go down South. Brexiteers make me feel unsafe though. What to do.

@ArabellaScott

Someone mentioned Nicola Sturgeon - did she ever make a public statement condemning the corrective rape threats made against Joanna Cherry by a member of the SNP?

No. Nothing.

The trial of the former SNP staffer accused of voyeurism is coming up soon, I think. Wonder if that will be hushed up.

god no. we are autistic and have enough trouble remembering the socail niceties as it is never mind remembering to have to lie if necessary. not worth the stress. I have kids that are likely to say is that a man or a women?

@Waitwhat23

The images were reported to the person's university (Brunel) who responded very quickly with a 'trans rights are human rights' statement. Facing a horrified response from the general public that violent threats against women (in particular Scottish women, given the hashtag) were essentially being endorsed by the University they then apologised and reported the student to the Police. However, their initial response was very telling.

I'm really not surprised at that attitude from a uni (English unis don't seem any better than Scottish ones on this subject!) and hope that he also has to face internal disciplinary procedures.

Tbh, it's the weather that puts me off holidaying in Scotland.

Many countries desire travel. A certain part of their economy depends to a certain extent on tourism for funding. The patience of business might be tested if enough women stopped spending money in Scotland.

I don't have a lot of money to travel, but when I decide to after covid, I will not be going anywhere where women have their rights limited by law. No Iran, UAE, or Scotland, I'm afraid.

I've never been to Scandinavia. Sounds like fun. Maybe they want my dirty TERF money.

Labelling people irrational for feeling this way is no good. As for "hysterical"... You go on holiday to places that have some kind of positive emotional association for you. If some women have found their mental associations with Scotland have gone from moors and mountains to McStasi, then of course they'll choose somewhere else. Choosing a holiday isn't a cold-blooded rational decision, it's supposed to be about feelings.

Scotland's institutions have changed - it was a slow creep but now the tone has changed for women who speak out against government policies. Its sad because I was so proud of being Scottish and this goes against everything Scottish people stand for. Stonewall has been a major player in this game giving incorrect legal advice to UK institutions and companies. See the newspapers for the removal of the word mother to get a Stonewall gold star. Its not just Scotland - be careful out there, wishing you well, a worried Glaswegian Feminist (WomenWon'tWheesht)

@Theunamedcat

I loved going to Scotland but I won't return now I dont feel safe as a woman going there anymore

Really? It's Scotland, what do you think will happen if you holiday there? (Genuine question)

Somuchforsummerlove, difference being I doubt you'd be spoken to or arrested for flinging your 'Fuck Brexit' stickers about. Well, maybe by the council anti littering bod.

Funnily enough, I said more or less this to my DH last night. I love Scotland as a place to visit but now feel similar about it as I do about certain Middle Eastern countries.

That is, although I know it's unlikely I would fall foul of the law whilst there, I am not comfortable visiting somewhere that has what I see as a lack of protection, equal treatment and respect for women and freedom of speech should any complaint be made. I am not prepared to risk being used as part of a political game. Moreover, I have no desire to add to the tourism revenue of a place I feel shows contempt for women and basic principles of freedom of speech in general.

It makes me truly sad to say that about such a beautiful country with such a rich history so closely intertwined with mine, but that is honestly how I feel about it at the moment.

[quote Weefatroaster]@Oatcakecravings -that sounds a horrible nightmare to work in .💐

I don't think this is about hating Scots or hating English etc For me ,its about a very sanctimonious government who are so desperate to be seen as woke and progressive when the reality isn't the case ,that they have lost the plot . Remember Scotland executed far more witches than England . Burnt them as well. I feel so sad and worried for the women such as Marion and Lisa. I cannot stand the SNP and the rest are hopeless . Some of the Yes campaigners were absolute numpties and I voted Yes as well. What a sad state we are in that a Tory minister has stuck up for us in England . I thought about moving to Wales but then seen that the Labour government is of the Momentum woke . Ex Labour member and voter all my life.[/quote]
You nailed it there. A formerly very religious and repressed nation, desperate to be seen as a liberal progressive European poster child. Just like Ireland but , thankfully , less in thrall to vulture capitalism.

@reprehensibleme

Somuchforsummerlove, difference being I doubt you'd be spoken to or arrested for flinging your 'Fuck Brexit' stickers about. Well, maybe by the council anti littering bod.

Nobody has been arrested for stickering here.

In England though...

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.thesun.co.uk/news/14716974/woman-screams-breaking-arm-police-lockdown/amp/

Hmm best not go to England any time soon. I'd feel unsafe.

For anyone who feels moved to do so, this is the Minister for Tourism

www.gov.scot/about/who-runs-government/cabinet-and-ministers/ivan-mckee/

@WellRightOKThen

Funnily enough, I said more or less this to my DH last night. I love Scotland as a place to visit but now feel similar about it as I do about certain Middle Eastern countries.

That is, although I know it's unlikely I would fall foul of the law whilst there, I am not comfortable visiting somewhere that has what I see as a lack of protection, equal treatment and respect for women and freedom of speech should any complaint be made. I am not prepared to risk being used as part of a political game. Moreover, I have no desire to add to the tourism revenue of a place I feel shows contempt for women and basic principles of freedom of speech in general.

It makes me truly sad to say that about such a beautiful country with such a rich history so closely intertwined with mine, but that is honestly how I feel about it at the moment.

Yes, this is it exactlt for me.

Fife police investigated 'hate crimes' associated with stickers appearing in Kirkcaldy. The stickers stated 'women won't wheesht'. Hateful sentiment, eh . The woman in the video posted appears to have been arrested for not giving details to the police.

Somuch, do you believe Marion Millar being charged with a criminal offence is OK? Do you think it reflects well on Scotland? I' m not worried about holidaying in my own country but I am worried about women's rights here, about women being silenced, about women's concerns being ignored.

A couple of years ago I was in the loos in a local shopping centre . Couple of teenage lads barged in, mucking about, and I told them to get out and stop behaving like idiots. I wouldn't do that now. I'm very careful who I discuss women's rights issues with. So the current trajectory of the Scottish government and police is making me change my behaviour.

They didn't arrest anyone, is what I said, and they backed down after a Twitter storm.

If you want to know my thoughts on Marion Millar please feel free to look at any one of dozens of my posts yesterday.

I'm not saying everything in Scotland is great. It clearly fucking isn't. What's hugely irritating is the pearl clutching from a distance. Oh, couldn't possibly visit there, I'd be unsafe, I couldn't possibly give my tourist pounds to Scotland, just as bad as the UAE where women can only work, marry or travel with their male guardian's consent.

I mean, wear your Feminist badge with pride all you want, and sure, it's lovely to post on the internet and have lots of other people nod sagely at you. But people who live in the place you're discussing might have some thoughts about what daily life is actually like, and I'm not sure why people are irritated by me saying so.

I live in Scotland and am very worried. It’s not just in public either. “Hate crimes” can be committed in one’s own home if someone reports you.

Never mind the hateful haberdashery that’s purportedly criminal.

I’m really sad to see how Scotland appears to prospective visitors, but I’m also glad that people are becoming aware of the crazy policies of the SG.

Yes, I agree it's sad. Much as I think some of what's being said is somewhat overstated, it's depressing that this is the view some people have now.

@SoMuchForSummerLove do you think this kind of international view might make the SG reflect on this stuff at all?

And if anyone wants to support Scottish women follow sole sisters on Twitter and search #womenwon’twheesht

(Wheesht means be quiet or shut up😃)

My dsis has lived in Scotland for 40 years.
She thinks Nicola Sturgeon is great and I know she probably thinks I'm transphobic.
It's a source of great frustration. I can't give a point of view. She closes the conversation down and congratulates herself on how broadminded she is.
I won't be visiting anytime soon.

[quote WouldBeGood]@SoMuchForSummerLove do you think this kind of international view might make the SG reflect on this stuff at all?[/quote]
I don't know how much they particularly reflect on anything any more. They're so safe in power with no credible opposition. That's a large part of the problem.

I did just email a lot of ministers with some of the highlights of this thread, but I'm sure it will mean nothing.