Are you put off booking a holiday in Scotland by the Marion Miller case and the Scottish police carping about stickers?

[ChristinaXYZ]

I know that the chances of being harassed by the police on holiday are minimal but the whole atmosphere: law changes, the SNP attitude to women, the police tweeting about stickers etc - would you really want to holiday in such a pool of chilling effects? It is really changing how I feel about Scotland (in the sense of those currently running it - I'm not blaming the average Scot obviously) and I know if I went there it would be on my mind all the time. Chilling effects do not equal a holiday feeling is what I am saying I guess.

@SoMuchForSummerLove

Don't be daft.

Do you think the streets are being policed by people looking out for terfs?!

Unless one of your holiday activities is going to a uni campus and shouting ONLY WOMEN HAVE VAGINAS then you're safe.

I don't think the Scots hate the English. I do know that other places have far worse human rights records on things like sexuality. But I bet most gay people don't go out of their way to holiday in such places. As the Scottish establishment (not the average Scot) seem to hate women or allow women-silencing to be a thing then, as a woman, it has rather dropped down the places I would like to visit because of the chilling effect. Because of the effect it must have on Scottish women (some have mentioned the effect on here, about deciding not to call the police of a misogynistic tweet for example / Scots in England feeling they don't want to move back to Scotland any more etc).

My original post was to see if others feel similarly to me - it was not to have a dig at individual Scots - I made that point in my post. People book their holidays on feelings - you feel like going somewhere -"I really fancy a week in xxx" you say to your other half. I wondered whether for a lot of people that feeling no longer included Scotland because of the chilling effect of institutional behaviour. Not because I thought I might be personally affected!

No, but the weather up there might.

Fine, but what's institutional behaviour got to do with your weekend sauntering down the Royal Mile? Unless you live here abs work in, say, a public sector organisation or university, there is no difference, and certainly no impact on the tourist experience.

It's like me saying I wouldn't visit England while that venal cheating racist is PM. But I don't say that because it's demonstrably stupid.

If anyone doesn't want to come to Scotland, for whatever reason, that's fine. You won't be missed.

It’s not hyperbole. I live here and work at a University, it’s chilling what is going on. I cannot say that I believe in biological sex in case someone overhears me and reports me at work or out of work (I might offend someone and cause them literal violence). Well I suppose I could say it/tweet it etc but I may end up in court for it.

And if someone doesn’t believe me look at the gender critical academics website, lots of reports from Scottish Unis.

[quote TheLovleyChebbyMcGee]Scottish people don't hate English people, and we don't hate women either, bore off with the antagonist comments please.

I imagine we'll get on fine given the human rights atrocities that other countries have in their history that are much worse than allowing people to self ID.

Before covid people still went to loads of counties with awful women's rights records, do you know its still illegal to be gay in 69 countries?

www.bbc.com/news/world-43822234.amp[/quote]
I certainly don't go to any of them, though!

Surely this isn't an unusual position to take on MN?

Anyway, back to the thread. I have considered contacting Visit Scotland to tell them I've found various events pretty offputting.

www.visitscotland.com/

I'm not gay. But I won't visit countries that have appalling records of inhumane treatment of gay people.

Same thing here. I don't really want to go Scotland again (have been lots, loved it) now that they are treating Scottish women like this.

@SoMuchForSummerLove

Fine, but what's institutional behaviour got to do with your weekend sauntering down the Royal Mile? Unless you live here abs work in, say, a public sector organisation or university, there is no difference, and certainly no impact on the tourist experience.

It's like me saying I wouldn't visit England while that venal cheating racist is PM. But I don't say that because it's demonstrably stupid.

To be fair to Boris he has not enacted any laws that force people to nod along with things they don't agree with or get women arrested for tweets. In fact Liz Truss is being allowed to respond to women's concerns in part at least - how did that go for Joanna Cherry? The faults you list are personal not political (on women's rights at least).

And your sauntering along the Royal Mile bit (wilfully?) misses the point - I keep saying I don't expect to be personally affected but my feelings of solidarity with those that are affected like @OatcakeCravings means that whilst sauntering anywhere in Scotland I'd be thinking of them and not being on holiday! Surely that is not so hard to comprehend!

Read the comments on Glinner's piece if you don't think Scotland's reputation is being affected (and yes of course, again, not the reputation of ordinary Scots who'll have the same range of beliefs on this as the English).

grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/you-wont-believe-why-theyve-charged

I would certainly think twice about going to Scotland given the new hate crime law. It would be odd having to be careful what I say for fear of getting on the wrong side of the law.

I realise it is unlikely I’d get in trouble, but I’d rather it was impossible. Which I don’t think is an unreasonable thing to want in a developed democratic nation.

It is naive for people to say “just don’t say x” and you’ll be fine. And if they can come after you for stuff posted on social media in the past that is irrelevant anyway.

@Moondust001

If anyone doesn't want to come to Scotland, for whatever reason, that's fine. You won't be missed.

You've nailed it! Clearly that should be Visit Scotland's next line of advertising. Worked so well for the Labour Party when they said buzz off and join Tories (or words to that effect)!

[quote Kona84]@NoIdontwanttoseeyourknob I did try use google before asking but unless I know where to begin searching Is not very fruitful[/quote]
Here we are Kona84. It's actually quite hard to keep track of this as an 'ordinary' member of the public not living in Scotland. I agree with you that 'just google' is not as easy as it seems. The way internet searches work mean that material does not automatically appear. I was looking for a press release (nothing to do with this, nothing controversial) this morning. I eventually found it via a tweet.

This is about Marion Miller who has been asked to attend a police interview investigating 'transphobic hate crime':

www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/columnists/scotland-is-in-trouble-if-police-are-dragged-into-culture-wars-as-snp-government-stokes-division-susan-dalgety-3253807

The second instance is about stickers and now deleted tweets from the police.

www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/scottish-news/7153299/police-scotland-clampdown-stickers-feminist-group/

Nah. I'm not going now, but a few of my family are buried at Culloden. We go to lay a wreath every few years, and we'll not stop that because of some eejits in Stormont with no knowledge of the Equality Act 2010.

We've plenty of family still up in Scotland, and they've no truck with this gender bollocks - sex is biological, gender is shitty stereotypes, end of.

Fine then. Maybe if I said I don't want to visit an England where vast tracts of racist people voted for a racist PM.

That's not personal, that's political.

It's still daft. I'm sure I could have a wonderful time in dozens of English cities and towns. I certainly wouldn't be moping around thinking of the plight of Remainers trapped in a Brexiteer hell.

[quote PurgatoryOfPotholes]Anyway, back to the thread. I have considered contacting Visit Scotland to tell them I've found various events pretty offputting.

www.visitscotland.com/[/quote]
Excellent idea

www.visitscotland.com/contact-us/

I live in Scotland. Used to be proud of living here - somewhere that seemed tolerant and at least trying to make the world a better place. Seriously considering my long term future here. And yes those who it puts off visiting or applying for jobs here or studying please speak up - let people know that this intolerant, anti women stance diminishes Scotland's place in the world.

oh for the love of whoever..Scotland is no more likely to throw you in jail than anywhere else ie England

@TheLovleyChebbyMcGee

Ah forgot a sentence, adding on that well be fine as loads of countries still get loads of visitors pre-covid that have some awful laws regarding sexuality

Yes but the UAE is hot and sunny. So halfwit influencers will continue going there.

The nationalism is more likely to put me off holidaying to be honest though. The indy movement has quite a nasty underbelly and some of the things said by the SNP have only given encouragement to xenophobes.

@ChristinaXYZ

I know that the chances of being harassed by the police on holiday are minimal but the whole atmosphere: law changes, the SNP attitude to women, the police tweeting about stickers etc - would you really want to holiday in such a pool of chilling effects? It is really changing how I feel about Scotland (in the sense of those currently running it - I'm not blaming the average Scot obviously) and I know if I went there it would be on my mind all the time. Chilling effects do not equal a holiday feeling is what I am saying I guess.

Are you put off booking a holiday in Scotland by the Marion Miller case and the Scottish police carping about stickers?

Nope. Not at all. On the contrary they seem to be very inclusive!

My DD applied to both Edinburgh and St Andrews universities but decided against them for which I am monumentally glad. Scotland is becoming a scary place for young feminists who believe that men can't be women.

@Oatcakecravings -that sounds a horrible nightmare to work in .💐

I don't think this is about hating Scots or hating English etc For me ,its about a very sanctimonious government who are so desperate to be seen as woke and progressive when the reality isn't the case ,that they have lost the plot . Remember Scotland executed far more witches than England . Burnt them as well. I feel so sad and worried for the women such as Marion and Lisa. I cannot stand the SNP and the rest are hopeless . Some of the Yes campaigners were absolute numpties and I voted Yes as well. What a sad state we are in that a Tory minister has stuck up for us in England . I thought about moving to Wales but then seen that the Labour government is of the Momentum woke . Ex Labour member and voter all my life.

I loved going to Scotland but I won't return now I dont feel safe as a woman going there anymore

@OatcakeCravings

It’s not hyperbole. I live here and work at a University, it’s chilling what is going on. I cannot say that I believe in biological sex in case someone overhears me and reports me at work or out of work (I might offend someone and cause them literal violence). Well I suppose I could say it/tweet it etc but I may end up in court for it.

This. One of my relatives is a scientist who's taught at Edinburgh University for some years and is biding her time and watching her words in the hope that she can survive without controversy for the next academic year, at which point she'll be eligible for her pension. At least in her subject area there doesn't seem to be any danger of her students denying biology, but she sits on various committees and has watched the witch hunt progressing apace. She says her GC contacts in the humanities live in a state of perpetual alert and fear.

I've watched with horror as my country has dismantled women's rights. My own personal turning point was elected politicians voting against traumatised rape survivors being able to request a female (I.e. female sex) examiner. It has just gotten worse and worse since then. I am truly ashamed to be Scottish. I didn't think I'd ever say that.

As an aside, we don't hate English people. It's a lazy argument to say 'all Scots hate English people'.