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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Are you put off booking a holiday in Scotland by the Marion Miller case and the Scottish police carping about stickers?

371 replies

ChristinaXYZ · 03/06/2021 16:54

I know that the chances of being harassed by the police on holiday are minimal but the whole atmosphere: law changes, the SNP attitude to women, the police tweeting about stickers etc - would you really want to holiday in such a pool of chilling effects? It is really changing how I feel about Scotland (in the sense of those currently running it - I'm not blaming the average Scot obviously) and I know if I went there it would be on my mind all the time. Chilling effects do not equal a holiday feeling is what I am saying I guess.

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WouldBeGood · 04/06/2021 09:56

Least you’ve tried @SoMuchForSummerLove.

It’s such a weird thing as I’m pretty certain the majority of Scots don’t support these policies, but they don’t know about them. People are genuinely amazed when they find out what’s going on.

ArabellaScott · 04/06/2021 10:00

Even though there's no credible opposition to the SG, they may yet end up imploding. Lots of odd stuff going on in the past few months.

Bit staggered taht most people don't seem to mind about highly questionworthy practises, a non-impartial civil service, basic constituent parts of a healthy democracy, etc.

SoMuchForSummerLove · 04/06/2021 10:01

I don't know anybody who supports them! The SNP have tried to create a society that doesn't exist, by saying they're simply reflecting back the change society has asked for. It's bollocks.

That said, I still don't get the 'I'd feel unsafe if I visited Glasgow for the weekend' nonsense. Nobody's going to rugby tackle you on Sauchiehall Street for saying the word woman.

Grellbunt · 04/06/2021 10:02

@ArabellaScott

Someone mentioned Nicola Sturgeon - did she ever make a public statement condemning the corrective rape threats made against Joanna Cherry by a member of the SNP?

No. Nothing.

But we Scottish wimmin are so TOUGH, you know... we are not supposed to be bothered by such threats. Just water off a duck's back to us.

(NB This is of course Heavy Sarcasm)

WouldBeGood · 04/06/2021 10:07

But you might end up being lifted if you said TWANW 🤷🏻‍♀️

WellRightOKThen · 04/06/2021 10:10

SoMuchForSummerLove No, and what you're saying, perfectly fairly, is what people who live in (for example) the UAE would also say.

It's absolutely true that everything's fine until it isn't. The 'isn't' is an extremely small proportion of the time compared to people who visit with no issues whatsoever. But it makes me uncomfortable to know that, were I to fall foul of the local law - however inadvertently - I don't believe that I would be treated fairly, sensibly or even coherently.

As well as the small risk, I have no desire to effectively endorse what I consider to be a blatant disregard for freedom of speech and consideration of women's rights by spending my money there.

That's not pearl-clutching, it's making a calm judgment of where I wish to deploy my teeny, tiny little bit of purchasing power!

WouldBeGood · 04/06/2021 10:10

I never thought I’d have to worry about posting pictures of suffragette ribbons either. But it’s in my mind now. So unpleasant.

Or to tell DS never to repeat my feminist views at school.

InvisibleDragon · 04/06/2021 10:12

My husband is from a country in the Middle East. Visiting that country feels normal on a daily basis - seeing family and friends, going to cafes, maybe a museum or a tourist site if we're feeling particularly keen.

But it's not a democracy. People have been arrested for flying the Pride flag, arguing for atheism, or criticising the government and the army. The president recently introduced a law banning criticism of the government on social media.

Before our most recent visit to his family, my husband systematically went through all of his social media and deleted any posts that could be construed as critical - because a friend warned that people were being stopped in the street and forced to show police their Facebook accounts.

That's how this kind of regime operates. Everything's fine as long as you keep your head down. And that's the effect of what is happening in Scotland. That kind of second guessing - is it ok to say this? Will this get me in trouble? Will someone report this?

I'm willing to visit my husband's family. And I'm aware of the privilege I have of not having to live and work in this country (or, worse, Saudi ...) and of being white and therefore somewhat protected from this stuff.

However, I really never thought I'd be in the same position of having to choose whether or not to self censor my belief that biological sex matters and is distinct from gender identity before visiting Scotland.

SoMuchForSummerLove · 04/06/2021 10:13

@WouldBeGood

But you might end up being lifted if you said TWANW 🤷🏻‍♀️
Under what circumstances would that happen though, as a tourist? You'd be, what, having lunch in a cafe, and say to the waitress, by the way TWANW, and she phones the police, who race round to pick you up?

Nah.

Grellbunt · 04/06/2021 10:18

I am so angry that in a country where so many people really are homophobic, racist and otherwise bigoted that they focus on trying to prosecute this shit. It's infuriating.

WouldBeGood · 04/06/2021 10:23

But the thought is there @SoMuchForSummerLove. The thought that you need to wheesht in case it upsets someone and the police are called.

What if a TRA is in the cafe too? Or a man in the women’s toilet?

Whether or not it’s likely doesn’t alter the fact it could be an actual crime to object.

InvisibleDragon · 04/06/2021 10:27

And before anyone says that I'm being melodramatic, I'm aware that the degree of censorship and oppression in my husband's country is far greater than that from the Scottish Hate Crime Bill. But I'm also aware that the sense of anxiety and unease that I get when I articulate (or choose to censor) my belief in the importance of biology is very similar to how I feel when I elide my (lack of) religious beliefs around my husband's family.

Grellbunt · 04/06/2021 10:28

I can relate to what you are saying, Invisible Dragon. It's not good.

SoMuchForSummerLove · 04/06/2021 10:49

Yes I guess that's true @WouldBeGood

PumpkinSpiceWoman · 04/06/2021 14:29

Since I don't indulge in hate speech, I'm fine.

ItsLateHumpty · 04/06/2021 14:53

@PumpkinSpiceWoman

Since I don't indulge in hate speech, I'm fine.
I’ve a newly favourite t-shirt which states “I am a woman. Get over it” and has been deemed a TERF ‘dog whistle’ by some (odd) people. It’s in support of Hibo fighting against FGM.

In Scotland this t-shirt could be considered a hate crime.

So, if I have to seriously consider my wardrobe for “hate speech” before I visit a country then yep, I’ll consider my options. If you consider women’s rights or being opposed to FGM ‘hate speech’, you’re in a very rarefied bubble.

Are you put off booking a holiday in Scotland by the Marion Miller case and the Scottish police carping about stickers?
WellRightOKThen · 04/06/2021 14:58

PumpkinSpiceWoman "Nothing to hide, nothing to fear!"

It's been a while since I last heard that one. Takes me back...Grin

WellRightOKThen · 04/06/2021 15:00

Or as our Scottish friends might say, "Are ye, aye?" Wink

Random789 · 04/06/2021 15:04

Seems odd to me now that just a few years ago I looked up to Scotland as this lovely little would-be social-democratic paradise standing up for values that the horrible little-Englander UK govt was busily trashing. I kind-of hoped that if they voted Leave they would accidentally take the North East of England with them (a chunk of mud stuck to their shoes Grin), so that I wouldn't be left at the far north of a nasty south-dominated rump of the UK.

So much has changed in so short a time. It looks like a toxic mess now. It would be hyperbolic to say that I would actually feel afraid to visit. But it certainly doesn't feel like a place I would want to visit right now. It is chilling and ugly, what is happening there.

StellaAndCrow · 04/06/2021 15:16

Random that is so similar to my view - I too thought after Brexit, Scotland could be a democratic left-leaning haven, and hoped it could take the North East with it. Now I'm not so sure.

A positive of all this is that I'm learning great Scottish sayings - I love "Are ye, aye?" :)

TildaKauskumholm · 04/06/2021 15:19

I live in Scotland and didn't know much about this until recently. I think it is happening in University towns, because that is surely where the woke types gather. Can't imagine for a minute that the vast majority know about this or would support it. Pity Nicola Sturgeon didn't get booted out.

WouldBeGood · 04/06/2021 15:20

It’s disappointing too as when I was young I loved Scotland and was very proud to be Scottish. Not now. And DS wants to move to England 🤷🏻‍♀️

InvisibleDragon · 04/06/2021 15:20

Since I don't indulge in hate speech, I'm fine.

Well that's good for you. Would you consider saying that biological sex is different from gender identity to be hate speech?

ArabellaScott · 04/06/2021 15:21

I think what has happened is that for a few years, the SNP has managed to present itself (and Scotland) as a progressive, tolerant, forward thinking country.

The truth is that underneath, on the ground, not all that much has really changed, though. There have always been nationalist elements that are small minded and anti-English, just as there have always been welcoming and open minded people in Scotland.

I think this is largely about spin and public perception.

It worked for a while.

Cracks are showing.

ArabellaScott · 04/06/2021 15:23

@TildaKauskumholm

I live in Scotland and didn't know much about this until recently. I think it is happening in University towns, because that is surely where the woke types gather. Can't imagine for a minute that the vast majority know about this or would support it. Pity Nicola Sturgeon didn't get booted out.
I think 'this' encompasses not just genderism, although that is quite a visible strand. It also encompasses a very unhealthy culture within the SNP, which is led by a husband and wife, whose members are forbidden from criticising the party, which rules strictly with the whip, which presents one true way forward and takes extraordinary measures to silence, intimidate, threaten and bully anyone who steps out of line.
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