Drag and misogyny

[SnowWouldHelp]

Do you find drag as a concept misogynistic? It came up on Thinking Allowed where it was compared to blackface and I realised I'd never thought of it like that. I haven't actually any seen any either so I don't know much about it and wondered what other people thought.

Tia's video, not the Queen one. Not sure why it has posted after my response. I imagine Queen's was actually quite edgy at the time.

I think people have made their points quite clearly, auntfanny. We get it, you love drag and think it's amazing. Other opinions are available.

The fact someone can compare the drag in 'I want to break free' to the video I posted and say one is fine but the other isn't is mind-blowing to me. I assume it's because you like Queen so are defending them from your own argument.

The expectation that we're meant to view women's oppression as creative, cool and edgy when it's a man portraying female oppression doesn't sit with with me.

Quite.

As in you would exactly feel there same if Tia was a natural woman?

What do you mean by "natural woman"? Tia is a completely male identifying bloke, no? And there's only one kind of woman.

No one has said it shouldn't exist. There you go, putting words into our mouth again.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

The expectation that we're meant to view women's oppression as creative, cool and edgy when it's a man portraying female oppression doesn't sit with with me.

Quite.

You said what I was trying to say, but so much better, Ereshkigalancleg. That's what I meant, despite what I said.

@Shedbuilder

No one has said it shouldn't exist. There you go, putting words into our mouth again.

That's confusing. If you think drag is in itself misogynistic, why would you think this 'misogynistic' video should exist?

The excellent quote I was responding to was from LolaSmiles

@greatauntfanny

The fact someone can compare the drag in 'I want to break free' to the video I posted and say one is fine but the other isn't is mind-blowing to me. I assume it's because you like Queen so are defending them from your own argument.

Queen were using drag to acknowledge women's (and gay men's) oppression and tell them to break free. The Tia Kofi video is fetishing traditional female stereotypes. Tia Kofi is presumably a gay man who is culturally appropriating some of the worst and most oppressive aspects of being female for entertainment. Queen are indicating that they understand and sympathise with women's desire to break free of stereotypes. Tia Kofi is just borrowing tropes and saying nothing political.

The fact that you can't see it says a lot. My question is why Tia Kofi can't be a gay man singing about being in love with a man without having to resort to pretending to be a woman. Do you see how homophobic that is?

That's confusing. If you think drag is in itself misogynistic, why would you think this 'misogynistic' video should exist?

Because I support free speech and free expression (within the law, obviously).

But does the fact that it's a man in drag change things? Do you view this video differently than if it was performed by a woman?

Yes, because I'd be able to see it as self mocking irony/commentary on sexist stereotypes that affect women (the group we are both members off). Whereas as pp said it adds insult to injury that it's a bloke in an OTT parody of women.

Exactly this👆

My question is why Tia Kofi can't be a gay man singing about being in love with a man without having to resort to pretending to be a woman. Do you see how homophobic that is?

I think this is the other side of the disappointing coin that is drag. It could be such a genuinely positive thing if it embraced the fact that stereotypically female characteristics are arbitrary and there's no reason why men can't dress and behave that way in their own right, why deliberately reinforce the opposite?

That's confusing. If you think drag is in itself misogynistic, why would you think this 'misogynistic' video should exist?

^Because I support free speech and free expression (within the law, obviously).^

So , Shed builder would you support a music video which grotesquely parodied a disabled person?

No, I would speak out against it (if having seen it I felt that it was a grotesque parody) just as I'm speaking out against the Tia Kofi one.

So can you envision any circumstances when it would be acceptable in our society for someone to pretend to be disabled and make fun of the disability?

'Do you feel this video should not exist'

???

Why the hyperbole?

No one has said the video shouldn't exist! Where did you get that?

Not watched it. Commenting on individual videos to prove this or that... Anyone can find something to say whatever.

I never liked the I want to break free video btw. Personally. Ever since i was little. Men in drag. Panto. Have always disliked it.

This was a video that was actually subversive, if we're doing that...

Or this (note the apple).

Freddie my god he was great though. And certainly smashed norms of attire!

Kurt

Can't find Nicky wire in a dress. He liked them.

Bowie too.

@greatauntfanny

To word it another way, when you see the video, if you dislike it, do you dislike it because of the stereotypes only? As in you would exactly feel there same if Tia was a natural woman? Orr is your dislike exacerbated by the fact Tia is a man?

Do you feel this video should not exist because:

A) Depicts a woman in a subservient role;
B) Is performed by a man so inherently misogynistic even if the roles in the video were reversed;
C) both of the above.

Ok in the end.

Aren't there enough pop videos with women doing this stuff?

Do we need more?

Women who don't conform to the rules. The rules of what men want to see. Are ridiculed and lambasted. Hated, tbh.

Here's a woman who is utterly hated. Who has been through massive trauma. I don't know her. I don't follow her or whatever. But I know before Kurt died. Before all that. She was hated. Strong women are not liked.

And the warning from her about Weinstein.

This song is subversive. I love it. Confused the poor men. Sexy lady. But scary? And saying it's shit? Noooooo!!!!!!

And here's a woman looking out for women. Knowing the possible consequences.

Watch her face before she says it.

Shedbuilder

There is example after example of subversive music.

All over the world.

In the USA steps were taken to suppress certain music. The radio stations all agreed not to play it. Parental advisory stickers were invented to put people off buying it.

At various points in various countries certain types of music have been banned. Because they were seen as dangerous.

I'll watch your video now. I hope that it tops, off the top of my head, NWA. In terms of challenging the status quo.

Let's do it!

@greatauntfanny

Terrible song. Terrible video.

THIS is what you're looking for....