Drag and misogyny

[SnowWouldHelp]

Do you find drag as a concept misogynistic? It came up on Thinking Allowed where it was compared to blackface and I realised I'd never thought of it like that. I haven't actually any seen any either so I don't know much about it and wondered what other people thought.

I’ve been to many drag shows and they are most often aspirational or tributes not derogatory.

I am sure that in the past people parodying disabled people might have claimed to be bringing the problems faced by the disabled to the fore. However, we know better now. There is no tribute to women when a man is using a parody of womanhood to hit back at other men.

Aspirational? That seems like an odd word to use within this context

cultural appropriation

It isn’t cultural appropriation, obviously, but it is appropriation.

No but they dress up to mock black people. Drag queens do it to mock the abuse they get for being effeminate

By punching down at women, but carry on...

Let's stick to people taking the piss out of disabled people maybe as the analogy to try and explain. See how that works.

I'm disabled and comfy with that.

@OppsUpsSide

Aspirational? That seems like an odd word to use within this context

Agree - I would really like to understand what that poster meant by ‘aspirational’.

Especially as she also said ’no women is meant to watch drag and wish she looked like a 6ft bloke in a blond wig and lipstick’.

the classifying of the women in them as either buxom young things or uptight and humourless harridans

Yes. And of course, drag sticks to these two jaded, ubiquitous stereotypes, too. The bling tart and the hideous old bag.

It's unimaginative and offensive, of course. It isn't even original, as most/all misogynist and patriarchal cultures readily attempt to sort women into these simple boxes. The religious 'virgin or whore' dichotomy, for example.

Agree - I would really like to understand what that poster meant by ‘aspirational’.

The word is sometimes used to refer to the celebration of aspirations. These days, though, it's often used as a vague, semantically nebulous generic term for "a good thing".

Agree - I would really like to understand what that poster meant by ‘aspirational’.

I think I originally used the word aspirational and they were just quoting it back to me. They seemed to be using the fact that drag artists aren't saying women should want to be like them as a justification for them.

Out of interest, to those of you who feel drag is inherently a misogynistic mockery of women, when you watch this video, do you think, "disgusting, there is a man who hates women perpetuating negative stereotypes"?

m.youtube.com/watch?v=mSmiC8G4cxE

[quote greatauntfanny]Out of interest, to those of you who feel drag is inherently a misogynistic mockery of women, when you watch this video, do you think, "disgusting, there is a man who hates women perpetuating negative stereotypes"?

m.youtube.com/watch?v=mSmiC8G4cxE[/quote]
I think “oh, another music video which depicts women as housewives or whores with the added insult of the person reinforcing this stereotype being of the oppressive male class”

Well in the first few seconds that performer is pouring a man coffee, while not sitting down sharing a meal or anything, so ‘waiting’ on a man, reading a magazine called Jackie so probably a ‘women’s’ magazine and ironing. And at the end shows a man pouring them wine while giving them the cold shoulder.

Frankly all I see portrayed here is the perpetuation of unhealthy relationships. And I don’t see anything inspirational in it at all.

Certainly it is not really fighting negative stereotypes, it is just showing oneupmanship. A positive ending would have been a happy relationship with both people sharing roles.

So, no. Just more of the same really.

I wouldn't say he hates women, I don't have that information. I don't think he's particularly smashing stereotypes though.

Serving, cleaning, ironing.... nope, no negative stereotypes being perpetuated there.

reading a magazine called Jackie so probably a ‘women’s’ magazine

It was a magazine for teenage girls in the 70s/80s. So a bit bizarre.

Thanks Eresh. That is weird.

I think “oh, another music video which depicts women as housewives or whores with the added insult of the person reinforcing this stereotype being of the oppressive male class”
I agree. There's just not enough music videos out there that portray women playing wifey for the right man...

The content (woman serving tea to man etc.) could be likened to other videos showing women in stereotypical roles/being all over men.

But does the fact that it's a man in drag change things? Do you view this video differently than if it was performed by a woman?

I am biased, by the way, because I think the artist is a brilliant person.

I think 'Oh look, another gay man imagining that dressing up as a parody of a 70s housewife and lasciviously polishing cups is edgy.' It's 'Look at me, me, me pretending to be gross stereotypes.' It's insulting because he's not questioning those stereotypes: housewife in the kitchen/ whore in the bedroom.

Contrast it with Queen's I Want to Break Free video, which is not only funny but recognises how trapped so many women have felt over the years in traditional female roles.

But does the fact that it's a man in drag change things? Do you view this video differently than if it was performed by a woman?

Yes, because I'd be able to see it as self mocking irony/commentary on sexist stereotypes that affect women (the group we are both members off). Whereas as pp said it adds insult to injury that it's a bloke in an OTT parody of women.

It reminds me of overrated TRA YouTuber Contrapoints and all the wankery in those videos.

To word it another way, when you see the video, if you dislike it, do you dislike it because of the stereotypes only? As in you would exactly feel there same if Tia was a natural woman? Orr is your dislike exacerbated by the fact Tia is a man?

Do you feel this video should not exist because:

A) Depicts a woman in a subservient role;
B) Is performed by a man so inherently misogynistic even if the roles in the video were reversed;
C) both of the above.

But does the fact that it's a man in drag change things? Do you view this video differently than if it was performed by a woman?
Yes, because those stereotypes and expectations exist to better service men and men's desires.
The expectation that we're meant to view women's oppression as creative, cool and edgy when it's a man portraying female oppression doesn't sit with with me.

I don't think the video "shouldn't exist", despite it being misogynistic. Freedom of speech, and all that.

[quote Shedbuilder]I think 'Oh look, another gay man imagining that dressing up as a parody of a 70s housewife and lasciviously polishing cups is edgy.' It's 'Look at me, me, me pretending to be gross stereotypes.' It's insulting because he's not questioning those stereotypes: housewife in the kitchen/ whore in the bedroom.

Contrast it with Queen's I Want to Break Free video, which is not only funny but recognises how trapped so many women have felt over the years in traditional female roles.

[/quote] Just in response, this is a very not edgy video. Anyone exposed even slightly to the drag community (which I would imagine Tia is) would not think they were being 'edgy' in creating this video. It's a pop video.