Drag and misogyny

[SnowWouldHelp]

Do you find drag as a concept misogynistic? It came up on Thinking Allowed where it was compared to blackface and I realised I'd never thought of it like that. I haven't actually any seen any either so I don't know much about it and wondered what other people thought.

I don’t think that is the case. Drag has its own stereotype of being larger than life, it is more cartoon character than attempts to portray real women. No women is meant to watch drag and wish she looked like a 6ft bloke in a blond wig and lipstick. You’re just meant to appreciate the artistry, the act (usually singing or comedy is involved) and the crazy fashion ideas.

Nobody is saying it's aspirational. They're saying the portrayals are derogatory with unacceptable regularity. I can appreciate the artistry etc of some of the looks but the "Fishy" type jokes cross a line and are not appropriately called out for it.

@midgedude

Do the parallels between black face and drag make you feel uncomfortable?

Yes. As it does for many nonwhite women. It is ultimately dismissive because drag is still impersonating a person seen as a human. Blackface and yellowface were used to portray other humans as less than human. The makeup and comic actions were deliberately animalised.

@aSofaNearYou
Nobody is saying it's aspirational. They're saying the portrayals are derogatory with unacceptable regularity.

I’ve been to many drag shows and they are most often aspirational or tributes not derogatory.

You see it as aspirational
Others find it insulting

No women are traditionally not seen as human, that's why women could be given away . They were historically owned and lesser than men

and that is still true today which is why when things are designed for people they are designed for men

And that's why women often feel as if they are portrayed as meat not human ,

when a man ogles it's because they see you as a sex object not a valid human like themselves

I don’t think that is the case. Drag has its own stereotype of being larger than life, it is more cartoon character than attempts to portray real women. No women is meant to watch drag and wish she looked like a 6ft bloke in a blond wig and lipstick. You’re just meant to appreciate the artistry, the act (usually singing or comedy is involved) and the crazy fashion ideas.

Stop telling people what they can and can’t say - and what they can and can’t find offensive @PlanDeRaccordement.

The black and white minstrels were meant to be a cartoon, jokey mimicry of a black people. It was meant to be entertainment.

I don’t want to, and I quote, ‘appreciate the artistry, the act [...] and the crazy fashion ideas’ of drag, thanks very much.

Oh, ‘usually singing or comedy is involved’? Is it? Thanks for the explanation - do you think people have been living under a rock? ‘Singing and comedy’ - well, that makes it so much better.

The singing and comedy didn’t make the minstrels any more entertaining, either.

I’ve been to many drag shows and they are most often aspirational or tributes not derogatory.

They’re not ‘aspirational’ if you find them derogatory. They’re derogatory.

And ‘most often’? So sometimes they’re not?

No women is meant to watch drag and wish she looked like a 6ft bloke in a blond wig and lipstick.

And no black person was meant to look at the minstrels and wish they looked like a Caucasian with boot polish rubbed all over their face.

Every single argument (read: justification) you make in favour of drag was also made in favour (read: justification) of the minstrels.

Nobody is saying it's aspirational. They're saying the portrayals are derogatory with unacceptable regularity. I can appreciate the artistry etc of some of the looks but the "Fishy" type jokes cross a line and are not appropriately called out for it.
Well said.
I appreciate the artistry of some of the costumes. I appreciate the talents and performance of men who can dance in heels with style.

I don't appreciate, and will never appreciate, demeaning jokes about women's genitals and the sort of misogynistic content that occurs with worrying regularly.

Even if we say NADQALT, there's still a huge elephant in the room: if NADQALT then why does the good, non-misogynistic majority stand by and laugh at the 'few' rotten apples? If misogyny is rare then why does it go unchecked with worrying regularly?

The cultural appropriation thing is a hard no from me.

It's for things that are of deep deep significance to very distinct groups.

Trying to think of an example of cultural appropriation of women in England.

Maybe when our long held cultural role of being the people in society who delivered the babies was stolen from us. With disastrous results in death rates.

That sort of thing.

To say it's about fashion really trivialises the idea of what cultural appropriation is an objection to. How I feel about it myself is a different topic. Is the intent to really anger people who feel strongly about aspects of their culture being taken, aspects of massive significance including religious or custom, and liken it to makeup?

And I don't give two shits if men wear dresses and makeup etc. Kurt Cobain looked awesome in his frock as did Nicky wire.

So can we get back to the main point and away from this diversion which many will see as frankly racist.

I don't appreciate, and will never appreciate, demeaning jokes about women's genitals and the sort of misogynistic content that occurs with worrying regularly.

Even if we say NADQALT, there's still a huge elephant in the room: if NADQALT then why does the good, non-misogynistic majority stand by and laugh at the 'few' rotten apples? If misogyny is rare then why does it go unchecked with worrying regularly?

This.

It is mocking a group of people (women) for an immutable physical characteristic we share. It is not okay!

Even if we say NADQALT, there's still a huge elephant in the room: if NADQALT then why does the good, non-misogynistic majority stand by and laugh at the 'few' rotten apples? If misogyny is rare then why does it go unchecked with worrying regularly?

We received an answer (of a rather weak type) to this. We are told that gay men who perform are too busy standing up for things like HIV awareness etc. The ones who recognize it as misogynistic are too busy standing for other good causes to do anything about making positive changes to the genre they benefit from.

Who gave that answer?!!

@NiceGerbil

Who gave that answer?!!

Someone’s great aunt I believe answered my questions:

1. "Are you saying that a drag performer who included misogynistic material in their show is not to blame for the content they are performing? And because they are out there having a good time, it is ok?"

‘No, if they make a directly misogynistic remark, that would be their personal responsibility (although I assume our interpretations of what constitutes misogyny differ). I take issue with the idea that drag itself is inherently misogynistic and so anyone doing drag is a misogynist.’

2. "And again I ask, because I have yet to get any answer."

Ooh, matron!

3. "What are drag performers who understand that there is a great deal of misogyny in their genre doing about this? Which ones are publicly speaking out? I have not seen one, is there someone I should be looking for?"*

‘Like saying, "What women are speaking out in favour of fathers who don't get to see their children as often as they'd like?" That's what you're doing.’

’It would be nice to see a drag queens speaking out against misogyny. But to be honest, they've got enough to speak out against.’

I did ask for further clarification but got nothing. I asked what the fuck was the weird matron reference and refuted the false equivalence they drew. And then I asked when would be a good time for performers in that genre of entertainment to deal with the fact that they, or if not them individually, their colleagues, are perpetuating hate against women?

Maybe they, or someone else will actually answer. But it seems those performers who see the misogyny are too busy making money from the genre and/or having fun to be worried about addressing it.

'Ooh Matron' was Kenneth Williams' catchphrase in the Carry On films when something risqué was going on.

Thanks Soapboxfox, still have no idea why someone would use it in the context they did. But I appreciate the clarification.

I found the reference to the Carry On films by that poster frankly odd while they were arguing that drag is not inherently misogynist. The Carry On films seem to be viewed as 'just good fun' by their fans but the presence of blackface, the classifying of the women in them as either buxom young things or uptight and humourless harridans, and the homophobia doesn't make for comfortable viewing now. Using that reference hardly enhanced their argument.

Interestingly, the same poster also posted this:

If they want to dress as comically slutty women whose boobs keep bouncing fully out of their clothes and who keep having to pause their act to 'give birth' and then throw the baby into the audience because it's 'another black one' then... ok yes that particular example is very offensive but it's A) an extreme example and not representative of drag as a whole and B) one of the funniest things I've ever seen. The sort of 'funny because it's so offensive' humour that would go down like a lead balloon on here.

So, they find a drag queen dressed in a particular stereotyped style, pausing their act to deliver a baby and throw it into the audience as ‘just another black one’, was funny. And that MN’ers simply had no sense of humour to appreciate it.

I guess it fits that the reference was used when looking at all their posts again.

Helleofabore

Sorry of course. I was being a bit dim!

Incidentally there did used to be a fair few women who supported f4j and in fact when it comes to issues men raise there are always women supporting them even if it goes against their own interests so that bit doesn't work anyway.

Not at all Nice Gerbil. It was worth me checking back because I then got an answer as to the weird matron thing.

And hey, the question is still not really answered. I am keen to get more thoughts about why the supposed ‘award’ performers are happy to allow their colleagues to spread hate toward women when they are supposedly benefiting from the growth of the genre due to it continuing.

Why should we not consider them complicit?

Aware performers . Not award performers.

@NiceGerbil

The cultural appropriation thing is a hard no from me.

It's for things that are of deep deep significance to very distinct groups.

Trying to think of an example of cultural appropriation of women in England.

Maybe when our long held cultural role of being the people in society who delivered the babies was stolen from us. With disastrous results in death rates.

That sort of thing.

To say it's about fashion really trivialises the idea of what cultural appropriation is an objection to. How I feel about it myself is a different topic. Is the intent to really anger people who feel strongly about aspects of their culture being taken, aspects of massive significance including religious or custom, and liken it to makeup?

And I don't give two shits if men wear dresses and makeup etc. Kurt Cobain looked awesome in his frock as did Nicky wire.

So can we get back to the main point and away from this diversion which many will see as frankly racist.

“Cultural appropriation refers to the use of objects or elements of a non-dominant culture in a way that doesn't respect their original meaning, give credit to their source, or reinforces stereotypes or contributes to oppression.”

I think it’s fine for some women to feel and express that this is how they view drag.

I can't imagine there can be many drag performers who think it's misogyny? As surely you wouldn't do it? And I can't imagine it would be that popular!

@WomaninBoots

Yes. I find it horrible. Interestingly I saw a post recently about Drag Race and a couple of women who called themselves 'fans' previously saying they had felt really uncomfortable with one bit in a recent episode. I suspect they may not be fans anymore... I daren't criticise in real life because it seems to be seen as at least mildly homophobic to be anything other than rabidly enthusiastic about drag in some circles... but I do wonder what women really think. And also why the feelings of gay men trump women's concerns about the cartoonish and insulting portrayals of women.

Was this the Australian drag race by any chance? Something on there was very very inappropriate and made me and DP turn it off.

Yeeesssss

But they will probably need to be aware (and presumably are aware) that expressing that view will

Lead into a massive diversion about what is or isn't female culture
Lead into a massive diversion about whether it's a reasonable term to use for this topic
May well attract criticism that it's insensitive, inappropriate, racist

And so that will probably head the conversation away from drag (the topic) and they won't get a chance to make any other arguments.

I still cannot comprehend how wearing fake boobs can be seen as cultural appropriation so that's a bit of an issue as well. And I suppose the other stuff. Is it women's culture to be (as many drag acts portray), shallow, bitchy and promiscuous? I would say. That's not our culture. That's a male view of a type of woman he wants to mock.

And so we go full circle.