Drag and misogyny

[SnowWouldHelp]

Do you find drag as a concept misogynistic? It came up on Thinking Allowed where it was compared to blackface and I realised I'd never thought of it like that. I haven't actually any seen any either so I don't know much about it and wondered what other people thought.

If drag is ‘womanface’ what about butch lesbians dressing in traditionally male clothing and using male names? Is that meant to be mocking men? Would a woman wearing a false moustache for a fancy dress party or for a theatre act be offensive to men?

@PlanDeRaccordement

I agree it is NOTHING like blackface or the minstrel shows and it’s frankly sick to appropriate the suffering and death of millions of Africans to score points in a debate about something so trivial as men wearing what are stereotypically women’s clothes, makeup and accessories.

Agree 100% Every time I hear this argument all I think is that these people obviously think makeup and dresses are inherently female. Drag queens don’t claim to be female.

I agree that it's not appropriate to conflate it with blackface.

The language used is misogynistic though. I don't particularly care about the clothing, make up etc. I do care about the 'female' stereotypes being portrayed (bitchy, catty, spiteful).

Really inappropriate to compare to black face seriously.

Not bothered by most drag, only because the shows I’ve been are very gender fluid... agree with pp, dresses and makeup aren’t something I consider “female” at all, anyone can wear what they want and that includes me wearing trousers and not looking “girly”. If anyone uses derogatory terms then yeah not good but I haven’t been to those types of shows.

Drag to me is like music... it’s a genre of performance or whatever... to write it off completely is as dumb as saying “I don’t like music”. I have butch mates and a mate who tried drag kinging so guess I’m less funny about not confirming to gender expectations

Yes it's misogynistic.

Every time I hear this argument all I think is that these people obviously think makeup and dresses are inherently female. Drag queens don’t claim to be female.

They are clearly parodying women, to the point that routinely, beards are disguised, penises are tucked and fake breasts are worn. It’s not just clothes and make up.

@thepuredrop

Every time I hear this argument all I think is that these people obviously think makeup and dresses are inherently female. Drag queens don’t claim to be female.

They are clearly parodying women, to the point that routinely, beards are disguised, penises are tucked and fake breasts are worn. It’s not just clothes and make up.

And presumably you’d think a woman flattening her breasts and wearing a man’s suit is mocking men? How about old-face for actors who play someone older than they are?

@Interestedparty132

No and black women have repeatedly asked for people to stop conflating the two. It’s nothing like blackface. Makeup and dresses don’t inherently belong to women and drag queens don’t claim to be literal women.

Exactly

Drag to me is like music... it’s a genre of performance or whatever... to write it off completely is as dumb as saying “I don’t like music”.

Hardly it's not obligatory to think it's ground breaking art. It's fine to find men parodying women distasteful and crass.

The history of drag is not that men did this to parody women. Gay men were bullied and ostracised for being effeminate and drag was a play on that. It wasn’t done to belittle women in the way that blackface was done to mock black people.

How is referring to women's genitals as smelling of fish not derogatory?

I didn’t say it was obligatory.

Not all of it is parodying, in fact none of the shows I’ve been to have done that. Should I stop wearing trousers because that’s “menswear”? Why can’t we all wear what we want? I always fight against misogyny but the drag I’ve seen hasn’t been misogynistic, hasn’t used sexist terms, it has shown up sexism and misogyny. I like that, and I like anyone wearing what they want.

I saw these kings a few years ago, it’s not all drag queens even www.pecsdragkings.com/

@Waitwhat23

How is referring to women's genitals as smelling of fish not derogatory?

They don’t all do this and you might want to check out some of the stuff that female comedians say about male genitalia too.

drag queens don’t claim to be literal women.

Minstrels didn't claim to actually be black, either.

I agree that dresses and makeup do not a woman make. But it's a misogynistic form of 'entertainment' to create an objectified and derogatory stereotype of what you think women are, just as there have been exaggerated stereotypes of black people as 'entertainment'.

If jokes about female genitalia are totally off the table that must also go for all jokes about erectile dysfunction, premature ejaculation and small penises. I remember Lily Allen writing a whole song about a man who ejaculates too soon. Is that misandrist?

And presumably you’d think a woman flattening her breasts and wearing a man’s suit is mocking men? How about old-face for actors who play someone older than they are?

Are women doing this and calling men cheesy? Are we celebrating it as a triumph of art? Lemme just check iPlayer to see the all-female cast of Drag Race, wherein Master Nocturnal Emission has beaten off rigorous competition from Undescended Testicle and Toxic Masculinity for pissing the furthest up a wall.
No, wait, I can’t.

@SoapboxFox

drag queens don’t claim to be literal women.

Minstrels didn't claim to actually be black, either.

I agree that dresses and makeup do not a woman make. But it's a misogynistic form of 'entertainment' to create an objectified and derogatory stereotype of what you think women are, just as there have been exaggerated stereotypes of black people as 'entertainment'.

No but they dress up to mock black people. Drag queens do it to mock the abuse they get for being effeminate.

@Interestedparty132 the only reason I know about the term 'fish' or 'fishy' was because it was referred to on mainstream TV as an example of the terminology used by the drag community so clearly it is widely used.

I can't think of any female comedians who refer to the smell of men's genitals on stage or TV - can you let me know some examples? I assume that drag Kings also use it as part of their act also?

But we’re here saying loads of drag isn’t misogynistic, and you’re saying some has been so it’s all a write off... so what’s the point of this discussion? One difference is I give feedback at gigs, I have told someone their material was bad and they apologised and I would again. But I know loads of gigs are great. I don’t just sit on the internet going “all drag is bad”.

[quote Waitwhat23]@Interestedparty132 the only reason I know about the term 'fish' or 'fishy' was because it was referred to on mainstream TV as an example of the terminology used by the drag community so clearly it is widely used.

I can't think of any female comedians who refer to the smell of men's genitals on stage or TV - can you let me know some examples? I assume that drag Kings also use it as part of their act also?[/quote]
Maybe not smell specifically but certainly penis size and ED.

@Interestedparty132

No and black women have repeatedly asked for people to stop conflating the two. It’s nothing like blackface. Makeup and dresses don’t inherently belong to women and drag queens don’t claim to be literal women.

What @Interestedparty132 said. There's a drag thread on MN every few weeks or so, always the same. Plenty of black people on the threads have asked for drag not to be conflated with blackface as they find it offensive to do so/trivialises blackface. Also agree with they don't claim to be women, and I don't see it as "mocking" women - just people expressing themselves. I feel secure enough in myself to not feel it's somehow an attack on me. It's just other people doing them.

@FictionalCharacter

Yes, it’s an ugly parody of women. “Women - this is you, the way you look, speak and walk is ridiculous and repulsive, let’s all laugh at you”.

What, I just don't get this. I don't look anything like a drag queen. I wear zilch make up, zero high heels and all the rest. If they want to express themselves that way, I say let them crack on. It has no bearing on me.

Drag queens do it to mock the abuse they get for being effeminate.

It shows how women are still viewed. Why would being effeminate be a bad thing, if being female was seen as a good and equal thing? Women receive so much abuse that it is normalised.

@SoapboxFox

Drag queens do it to mock the abuse they get for being effeminate.

It shows how women are still viewed. Why would being effeminate be a bad thing, if being female was seen as a good and equal thing? Women receive so much abuse that it is normalised.

It’s not the same though is it. Effeminate men get similar abuse to masculine/butch women, ie they are targeted because they don’t conform to stereotypes. A woman who does conform doesn’t get mocked or attacked for how she acts or dresses. She is of course at risk of things like partner-violence and sexual harassment but people don’t tend to shout abuse at or try to beat up gender-conforming women.