Drag and misogyny

[SnowWouldHelp]

Do you find drag as a concept misogynistic? It came up on Thinking Allowed where it was compared to blackface and I realised I'd never thought of it like that. I haven't actually any seen any either so I don't know much about it and wondered what other people thought.

And I'm not saying that the only thing cultural about women is how they dress! It's just one aspect that drags have chosen to use.

As a women, I am not defined just by how I look, there is plenty more I consider to be part of my culture.

@pigeonpies
But I don’t think woman culture can exist at all because it’s really meant as a unisex/sex neutral umbrella term? Culture is defined as the customary beliefs, social forms, and material traits of a racial, religious, or social group. There isn’t any of this that is common to all women?

I don't understand that ,

there is no culture as there is nothing that's true of all humans ?

@NiceGerbil

But you did say that

You said that making jokes about your own group/ situation is worse than outsiders doing it.

Or do you mean only if it's jokes about women's bodies but it's different for everything else?

@nicegerbil. I was so angry at your smears I deregistered. Whilst I didn't expect an apology for your twisting I didn't expect you would double up on your lie.

i repeat what I said -it was fine for the GGM team to joke about themselves. I said I thought Schumer's stupid comment validates fish comments which could be potentially worse.

here's what I did not say

"You said that making jokes about your own group/ situation is worse than outsiders doing it." I only mentioned Schumer- not all groups.

Even if I had said that, which I didn't, I absolutely did not say it was OK for white men to make the sort of jokes the GMM team make. It is only your nasty twisting of it to come up with that interpretation.

I re-registered briefly to post this. Carry on making up lies as after this I'm out.

I think the thing with drag though is that it isn't how you define yourself personally it's how others see you ( generic female )

I particularly dislike having naff female stereotypes used when they are not true about me yet are routinely used to justify discrimination ( bubble headed female that I am )

@nicegerbil. I was so angry at your smears I deregistered. Whilst I didn't expect an apology for your twisting I didn't expect you would double up on your lie. i repeat what I said -it was fine for the GGM team to joke about themselves. I said I thought Schumer's stupid comment validates fish comments which could be potentially worse. here's what I did not say "You said that making jokes about your own group/ situation is worse than outsiders doing it." I only mentioned Schumer- not all groups. Even if I had said that, which I didn't, I absolutely did not say it was OK for white men to make the sort of jokes the GMM team make. It is only your nasty twisting of it to come up with that interpretation. I re-registered briefly to post this. Carry on making up lies as after this I'm out.

It's quite impressive to make a post saying how shocked and appalled you are at someone making up something about you, whilst confirming the thing they said about you. You've literally just agreed that you said a woman doing it is worse than men doing it. People have asked if you apply this to other groups, and according to this response apparently not, just women like Schumer doing it. So you did say exactly what people are saying you did. Why are you so offended by that?

[quote PlanDeRaccordement]@pigeonpies
But I don’t think woman culture can exist at all because it’s really meant as a unisex/sex neutral umbrella term? Culture is defined as the customary beliefs, social forms, and material traits of a racial, religious, or social group. There isn’t any of this that is common to all women?[/quote]
I don’t think there are any races or religions who all share the exact same customary beliefs, social norms, and material traits either.

I understand pigeon’s point. She’s saying that an oppressed group being mocked for their traditional clothing choices by the oppressive group in the form of appropriating it is not on.

@AllTheUsernamesAreAlreadyTaken yes, that's my point, thank you

What is culturally common to all women is the discrimination we face at the hands of men. Therefore , for a group of men to culturally appropriate and parody the stereotypical view of women in their culture ,in order to hit out at other men, is truly misogynistic. How better to get your own back on somebody " bigger and stronger than you" than by hitting out at "somebody smaller and weaker than you" . Drag is the epitome of bullying misogyny

[quote aSofaNearYou]**@nicegerbil. I was so angry at your smears I deregistered. Whilst I didn't expect an apology for your twisting I didn't expect you would double up on your lie. i repeat what I said -it was fine for the GGM team to joke about themselves. I said I thought Schumer's stupid comment validates fish comments which could be potentially worse. here's what I did not say "You said that making jokes about your own group/ situation is worse than outsiders doing it." I only mentioned Schumer- not all groups. Even if I had said that, which I didn't, I absolutely did not say it was OK for white men to make the sort of jokes the GMM team make. It is only your nasty twisting of it to come up with that interpretation. I re-registered briefly to post this. Carry on making up lies as after this I'm out.

It's quite impressive to make a post saying how shocked and appalled you are at someone making up something about you, whilst confirming the thing they said about you. You've literally just agreed that you said a woman doing it is worse than men doing it. People have asked if you apply this to other groups, and according to this response apparently not, just women like Schumer doing it. So you did say exactly what people are saying you did. Why are you so offended by that?[/quote]
How hard is it for you? I was shocked at NiceGerbil's lie that I am supposed to have said it was OK for white men to make the same sort of jokes the GGM team do. I said exactly the opposite.

I did not mention all groups I specifically mentioned Schumer. Even if I had mentioned all groups that still doesn't translate into NiceGerbil's malicious "interpretation' that it means white men can make the sort of jokes made on GMM.

I wonder MsBarbary would you also condemn all men parodying women ?

To be fair 334bu MissBarbary said this way back up the thread.

I don't find drag paricularly offensive but I'm mystified about what the point is.

Yet finds Amy Schumer particularly offensive, it seems.

@334bu

I wonder MsBarbary would you also condemn all men parodying women ?

I said that I don't particularly find drag offensive. I don't understand what the point is.

I find Amy Schumer's remarks offensive because why complain about drag acts if you're happy for this woman to validate what they say.

Are you happy for the lie about "white men" to stand?

The point is, Barbary, that people from an oppressed group can make fun of themselves but people from the group who oppresses those people cannot make fun of them.
You seem to agree with this with the exception of women.
You have not answered why this is, despite being asked multiple times.

Are you happy for the lie about "white men" to stand?

It wasn’t a lie, it was an assumption based on your attitude towards women as an oppressed class being unable to joke about themselves and make fun of their sexist assumptions made about them.

I have only come to realise how deeply woman-hating drag is in the last few years. I have never been comfortable with it but self-censored myself to the point where I ignored my gut instinct. The current bombardment of drag from the BBC is concerning. It normalises highly prejudicial stereotypes of women - as if we don't have enough going on just now.

I agree with you MsBarbary in some respects - not all, as I hate drag and the BBC's promotion of it. I don't know who Amy Schumer is but that's nasty stuff and not a joke, even an unfunny one, so yes, I see where you are coming from. I hope you don't leave because of this but it would be understandable.

I said that I don't particularly find drag offensive. I don't understand what the point is.

I find Amy Schumer's remarks offensive because why complain about drag acts if you're happy for this woman to validate what they say.

Can you tell us again, why are you more offended by one woman discussing HER vagina's condition, than you are about drag.

Because you don't particularly find drag offensive... Yet, you are very clear about your feelings about a woman describing HER vagina. Not anyone else's or making any remark that other people's vaginas smell that way. In fact, she implies that from the smell there is something unhealthy in that smell.

Your reaction here is that it is more offensive than males stating that a healthy vagina smells of fish, take on misogynistic names (even of a child who was abused and murdered), and parody females in so many other ways, which you state you are not particularly offended by.

Why?

*I said that I don't particularly find drag offensive. I don't understand what the point is.

I find Amy Schumer's remarks offensive because why complain about drag acts if you're happy for this woman to validate what they say.

Are you happy for the lie about "white men" to stand?*

That makes zero sense. You aren't offended by drag and yet find a woman saying things that are at most middling in terms of how crude they are on the scale of things drag acts say, offensive?

You are flat out refusing to see the massive double standard in what you are saying, whilst being mortally offended by someone asking if you apply the same logic when the subject is racism rather than misogyny.

This is internalised misogyny, there's nothing else to call it.

It's quite impressive to make a post saying how shocked and appalled you are at someone making up something about you, whilst confirming the thing they said about you. You've literally just agreed that you said a woman doing it is worse than men doing it. People have asked if you apply this to other groups, and according to this response apparently not, just women like Schumer doing it. So you did say exactly what people are saying you did. Why are you so offended by that?

Agree.

@MsBarbaryBriefly you seem to be really struggling to grasp people explaining the blatant double standard you are applying.

You think it’s worse when women make fun of themselves, than when men do it.

But you don’t then apply that same rule to racism. You think it’s worse for white people to makes jokes about black people.

Why?

Going by your logic, it should be worse for a black person to make a joke about themselves. In other words, preferable for a white person to do it.

Power disparity
Women cross dressing isn’t funny in the same way as men in drag is meant to be because men have more power. It’s always less insulting to mock up than to mock down.

White people blacking up is insulting because of the power imbalance and reinforcement of insulting stereotypes

Men in drag is the same - men appropriating and reaffirming harmful stereotypes of the less powerful (women)

I don’t see any diffrrrence - I hate drag. It feels women hating

I am getting really tired of this thread appropriating racism to make debate points, please stop conflating men dressing up like women with blackface or yellowface. It keeps being put out there as comparable/the same as and it really isn’t.

The current bombardment of drag from the BBC is concerning. It normalises highly prejudicial stereotypes of women

I don’t think that is the case. Drag has its own stereotype of being larger than life, it is more cartoon character than attempts to portray real women. No women is meant to watch drag and wish she looked like a 6ft bloke in a blond wig and lipstick. You’re just meant to appreciate the artistry, the act (usually singing or comedy is involved) and the crazy fashion ideas.

Well I am sure you were just meant to appreciate the singing of the black and white minstrels

Do the parallels between black face and drag make you feel uncomfortable?