Drag and misogyny

[SnowWouldHelp]

Do you find drag as a concept misogynistic? It came up on Thinking Allowed where it was compared to blackface and I realised I'd never thought of it like that. I haven't actually any seen any either so I don't know much about it and wondered what other people thought.

@MissBarbary What have I supposedly made up, then?

People haven't been making things up from what I can see, they've been trying to figure out what your argument is by suggesting possibilities to you, while you ignore them and say "straw man" over and over again. Not really the same thing.

Also why as a disabled person if I joke about my own disability that's worse than what you describe, and in fact is giving permission and supporting them doing it.

The idea that groups who experience issues with stuff in life must not use humour about themselves. Even though it's a way of defusing situations/ getting people to stop asking difficult questions/ and for many joking about it has an effect of making you feel a bit better for many.

They must not joke at all. And be four and serious and humourless about any and all of it.

Because that gives the green light apparently for people outside that group to mock and belittle them.

It's a compelling argument!

@NiceGerbil

Well you did say that it would be ok for white men to make the jokes made on goodness gracious me so ???!!!

Have responded to all your points I think even though they're really very silly.

I absolutely did NOT say that. How dare you twist or misinterpret what I wrote.

I said that it was fine for the GGM team to make jokes about themselves.

NiceGerbil this is what I said

There is no comparison whatsoever with the Goodness Gracious Me or Gimme, Gimme, Gimme team making rather gentle comedy against themselves out of stereotypes which have an element of truth in them and the nonsense quoted on here by Amy Schumer

How dare you twist that into saying I said that it would be ok for white men to make the jokes made on goodness gracious me

That is an invention of yours and you are basically calling me a racist.

So Miss Barbary what is your justification for drag? Why do you not think it is misogynistic to its core? What makes it acceptable for a more powerful group( men) to mock a weaker group ( women)? Are women not worthy of the same respect as disabled people for example?

@334bu

So Miss Barbary what is your justification for drag? Why do you not think it is misogynistic to its core? What makes it acceptable for a more powerful group( men) to mock a weaker group ( women)? Are women not worthy of the same respect as disabled people for example?

Where on earth have I said there is any justification for drag? Please point to the posts justifying it? Or where I have said it is acceptable?

You can't - because I didn't say that either.

And NiceGerbil I did report your now deleted post with your despicable invention of yours saying I said it was OK for white men to make jokes similar to those on GGM.

@MissBarbary

And NiceGerbil I did report your now deleted post with your despicable invention of yours saying I said it was OK for white men to make jokes similar to those on GGM.

Ok, if you’re refusing to answer our main question, try this one

Why do you hold women up to tougher scrutiny than you do other oppressed groups?

So women should not joke about own own bodies because it's a green light to men to make similar jokes much more frequently. And it's worse when the women do it.

For everything else, jokes made by outsiders are appalling and totally different to people making them about themselves which is fine.

You either think women should following different rules to everyone else (so what's new) or can't see that you're demanding different standards for women at all.

*Where on earth have I said there is any justification for drag? Please point to the posts justifying it? Or where I have said it is acceptable?

You can't - because I didn't say that either.*

But you did say that women doing it is worse, which is being an apologist for men, which I assume is the part you think I am making up?

My apologies Miss Barbary, so would you agree with me that drag is based on misogyny and has no place in a civilised society, where it should no longer be acceptable for more powerful groups to mock and humiliate more vulnerable groups.

HeyManIJustWantSomeMuesli
That's what some of us are getting at.
If a man wants to wear frocks, makeup, heels and do a glitzy performance, them I couldn't care less. There's some amazing male dancers who choreograph music videos and and lead dance workshops, all in heels. They're good to watch and very talented when you see how they teach others.

The issue isn't just men doing glitzy performances and embracing their more (stereotypically) feminine side/performing in a way that challenges masculine stereotypes and embraces effeminate manhood. It's that for a lot of men in the drag scene it isn't enough to put on a dress and perform; their whole act is based on punching down, degrading women. Unfortunately some posters on this thread seem to think that challenging the misogyny is a sign that feminists promote stereotypes, are homophobic and need to listen to men.

Well said @lolasmiles. I couldn't care less if men wear make-up and dresses. What I do care about the degradation of women and the fact we're meant to be complicit in the trope of 'it's only a bit of fun!'

MissBarbary - I think you’re getting tied up in knots, because while you think it’s worse for women to joke about their own bodies than for men to do it, you clearly very much do not apply that same rule to other groups.

It’s a blatant double standard, that erodes your credibility.

It's cultural appropriation, by a patriarchy who have oppressed women for eons. Women are killed and raped at an alarming and disproportionate rate, by men. Violence, sexual assault, systematic sexism and misogyny, sexual harassment. The perpetrator almost always being male.

And by culture I do mean the culture of wearing makeup and dresses and high heels and anything else you associate with being a women. That's my culture and drags are appropriating it for their gain and as a women I am ultimately the butt of their jokes.

I often don't wear that stuff. It still pissed me off.

Having breasts isn't cultural.

To me it's a caricature and a piss take.

Men whoever they are, have often been keen on lampooning us, portraying us as grotesque.

My dad and I'm sure many other straight men found Cupid stunt hilarious back in the day.

And by culture I do mean the culture of wearing makeup and dresses and high heels and anything else you associate with being a women. That's my culture

That’s not woman culture that we created for ourselves. High heels and makeup we appropriated from men centuries ago. And dresses we were forced to wear by the patriarchy.

@PlanDeRaccordement it's still women's culture today though, even if it was forced upon us. The drags are impersonating that, if they didn't put on the makeup and dresses it wouldn't work for them.

And by culture I do mean the culture of wearing makeup and dresses and high heels and anything else you associate with being a women. That's my culture and drags are appropriating it for their gain and as a women I am ultimately the butt of their jokes

It's not my culture. My culture is wearing comfy clothes, striving to be the best as I possibly can in an intellectual sense, swearing and drinking whisky.

Oddly, that's seen as being at odds with being a woman and whereas those who are 'binary' and 'gender fluid' are showered with accolades those of us who desire to expand the bandwidth of being a woman in a direction that does not give men boners or the benefit of our sexual, reproductive or domestic labour are derided. Of course, modern drag also sends up the culture that has been imposed on us.

Loads of dress type garments have been worn around the world forever

Ok they don't look like the ones drag queens wear but still

Breasts aren't cultural

It's not cultural appropriation and really it's peculiar to say so. Also suggests that women want it and like it and it's of deep significance to us. 9 inch heels? Um.

Strange turn this thread has taken!

There seems to be confusion between culture and fashion here

[quote pigeonpies]@PlanDeRaccordement it's still women's culture today though, even if it was forced upon us. The drags are impersonating that, if they didn't put on the makeup and dresses it wouldn't work for them. [/quote]
I just disagree. Woman Culture implies values and traditions of importance that women hold in common. Makeup, dresses and stilettos are not culture in my opinion. I think @NiceGerbil has it nail on head by saying it is fashion.

@NiceGerbil the same way it's cultural appropriation when a person wears something traditionally worn by another culture ( usually one that's been historically oppressed!)

Clothing and fashion fall under cultural appropriation, as does dance, music religious symbols, hairstyling ( Kim Kardashian and cornrows debate)

No, breasts are not cultural, they are part of the human body I grew, just like the colour of my skin and the natural state of my hair. And I recognise not all women wear makeup and dresses ( sits here in joggers and moisturiser) but those thing are identifiably 'female' even if we don't like it.

Like I said, if drags didn't wear the dresses and heels and make up then their act wouldn't work. They are using the culture of woman's fashion. The fake breasts used to emulate a body part I have no control over growing