Drag and misogyny

[SnowWouldHelp]

Do you find drag as a concept misogynistic? It came up on Thinking Allowed where it was compared to blackface and I realised I'd never thought of it like that. I haven't actually any seen any either so I don't know much about it and wondered what other people thought.

I do

Everyone’s talking about Jamie will be giving it a cuddly feel I think

I do. There’s a cruelty and ‘disgust’ for /about women running through drag which is different from the panto dame/principal boy cross dressing to which it’s so often compared.

I think it's misogynistic. I completely disagree with those who say it celebrates women. It doesn't. There's no other form of humour where it's perfectly acceptable to take the piss out of an oppressed group.

@SnowWouldHelp

Do you find drag as a concept misogynistic? It came up on Thinking Allowed where it was compared to blackface and I realised I'd never thought of it like that. I haven't actually any seen any either so I don't know much about it and wondered what other people thought.

Yes, absolutely. I've always hated drag. It's a way in which men can say the most appalling misogynistic, sexist things about women from behind the safety of womanface. Women are required to laugh along to prove what good sports they are. And then there's the porniness of it all. Just awful.

Yes. I find it horrible. Interestingly I saw a post recently about Drag Race and a couple of women who called themselves 'fans' previously saying they had felt really uncomfortable with one bit in a recent episode. I suspect they may not be fans anymore... I daren't criticise in real life because it seems to be seen as at least mildly homophobic to be anything other than rabidly enthusiastic about drag in some circles... but I do wonder what women really think. And also why the feelings of gay men trump women's concerns about the cartoonish and insulting portrayals of women.

Yes. Everyone knows Blackface is racist. In a similar way, Womanface is misogynistic.

Why was Rachel Dolezal heavily criticised for self-identifying as black, yet males self-identifying as women are protected to the extent that anyone challenging their claims gets cancelled?

Why do the same people who would be up in arms over 'cultural appropriation' feel they must support the appropriation of womanhood by men?

Absolutely, it's a way of mocking women

Yes, it’s an ugly parody of women. “Women - this is you, the way you look, speak and walk is ridiculous and repulsive, let’s all laugh at you”.

Yes and I have a problem with the fact the BBC heavily advertise it targeting a young audience. This means it’s the most watched programme at Dds secondary school. Terms like ‘bitch’ and worse filter into everyday language. All the performative drama and hypersexualised stuff does too.

Yep. It is sexist and very often nasty.

And it fuels more nastiness by normalising a caricature of woman which others and dehumanises us.

I wrote this after hearing a man (not in drag, but on a drag / trans stage) at Pride in Manchester say that the protesters from Get The L Out should have been dragged off the London Pride march "by their saggy tits." a couple of years ago.

I'd been wrestling with ideas around drag for a while, and talking to people in the hope that they would help me see why it was ok.

It didn't, just made me clearer in my dislike, but this was the last straw.

medium.com/@janesprocket/on-misogyny-on-drag-or-how-it-became-ok-to-say-drag-them-off-by-their-saggy-tits-2765873c1dfc

I'm impressed it was discussed on Thinking Allowed though, I'll have to have a listen. I am a social science nerd and do like that programme.

Its very language is full of misogyny and open disgust for the female body.

Some of it is certainly highly misogynistic.

Take this list of names. Entrants include "Malestia Child" and "Anna Bortion".
www.pride.com/comedy/2019/7/19/18-funniest-drag-queen-names#media-gallery-media-16

I've also come across one whose stage name was "Miss Carriage".

I think I first fully realised how misogynistic drag is was when I saw Big Fat Quiz of the Year a couple of years ago when they had two drag Queens on to explain the terminology used in that community. They talked about 'fish' or 'being fishy' and I watched the comedians laughing and joking about the term and thought 'hold on, isn't that going back to the whole awful idea of women's genitals supposedly smelling of fish and being used as an idea to degrade them (generally by men)?'.

I just couldn't believe that such an unpleasant, derogatory term was being used to allude to women's body parts and that this was acceptable to laugh and joke about on mainstream TV.

No and black women have repeatedly asked for people to stop conflating the two. It’s nothing like blackface.
Makeup and dresses don’t inherently belong to women and drag queens don’t claim to be literal women.

Drag queens are referred to as fishy, for their ‘passing’ ability. It’s so misogynistic.

Yes, it’s an ugly parody of women. “Women - this is you, the way you look, speak and walk is ridiculous and repulsive, let’s all laugh at you”.
Yes, it makes me think of the criticisms to the Minstrel show, the awful portrayal of black men and women as a source of amusement.

I just couldn't believe that such an unpleasant, derogatory term was being used to allude to women's body parts and that this was acceptable to laugh and joke about on mainstream TV.

And then IIRC MTF trans people complained about it because the term is transphobic as they don't have the body parts in question, and I think they actually got an apology for being made to feel "othered", even though it was a vile term for a female person, and many women complained and didn't get an apology.

I have always thought this.

The typical drag queen was bitchy, dressed in overtly sexualised clothing, tittering away on death defying heels with a face full of slap and ridiculously long nails.

No. It’s just makeup, wigs and padded clothes. Couldn’t care less. Besides we have girls binding and packing and doing male drag all the time now. Let people wear what they want when they want.
Historically men pranced about with lace, high heels, long haired wigs and make up. Nothing wrong with that.

No. When I see young (almost always) gay men dragging up and coming alive I find it hard to knock. They look (and I imagine feel) so comfortable and confident. They're not doing it to mock women. Telling them to stop doing what they love wouldn't cross my mind.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I just couldn't believe that such an unpleasant, derogatory term was being used to allude to women's body parts and that this was acceptable to laugh and joke about on mainstream TV.

And then IIRC MTF trans people complained about it because the term is transphobic as they don't have the body parts in question, and I think they actually got an apology for being made to feel "othered", even though it was a vile term for a female person, and many women complained and didn't get an apology.

Wow, I didn't know that! It's just another example of how women's voices just don't matter.

Makeup and high heels are not inherent to women. Men wearing them aren’t appropriating something that is ours. Drag didn’t originate as a mockery of women as blackface did in respect of black people. It was started by gay men who faced prejudice for being effeminate.

No and black women have repeatedly asked for people to stop conflating the two.
That’s a fair point. I did it in my previous post, so my apologies to black women offended by this.

@FictionalCharacter’s point stands by itself without needing my conflation.

I agree it is NOTHING like blackface or the minstrel shows and it’s frankly sick to appropriate the suffering and death of millions of Africans to score points in a debate about something so trivial as men wearing what are stereotypically women’s clothes, makeup and accessories.