Drag and misogyny

[SnowWouldHelp]

Do you find drag as a concept misogynistic? It came up on Thinking Allowed where it was compared to blackface and I realised I'd never thought of it like that. I haven't actually any seen any either so I don't know much about it and wondered what other people thought.

I can understand that the American experience of blackface is different to that in the U.K., where it was merely what passed for (crass) light entertainment at one point. And so more similar to drag. But I want to be respectful towards black feminists so I don't use it, though I generally don't base everything I say on the American context.

@LolaSmiles

I don't think men wearing stereotypically women's clothing and performing is inherently misogynistic. I think clothes are clothes and if men want to wear make up then they can. If they want to wear sparkly clothes, heels, and make up then fine. If effeminate men want to perform in a way that challenges toxic masculine norms then that's also fine by me.

However, I think elements of the drag scene are very much misogynistic as they're grounded in the mockery of women and their 'acts' seem infused with degrading so called jokes and an unreasonable focus on stereotypes of female sexuality. Some seem less focused on fun costumes and make up, and more focused on parodying a bizarre version of womanhood that's based on sex and being 'sassy'. I also can't stand the fact that so many of the stage names are focused on sex acts or the sexualisation of women.

Yes

@Backstreetsbackalrightdadada

And that’s why I call it out in shows... not all drag is misogynistic, if I hear anything bad I make a complaint. Particularly the new generation aren’t like that. How many shows do you go to typically?

The son of a friend of mine has taken up a career as a drag queen. He'd be mid twenties I guess. Friend listed a clip of his act. The whole gag was around some spray to stop his 'fanny' smelling. It was repulsive.

That's your new generation.

Maybe you just can't see how bad it is?

Had anyone noticed that the 2May the best woman WIN!" part has now been changed to "may the best DRAG QUEEN WIN!". I wonder if something has changed there

I know that in Drag Race UK it changed from Gentlemen, start your engines, and may the best woman win!
To Racers, start your engine, and may the best drag queen win! because there were some non binary contestants and it changed to be more inclusive for everyone.
So I'm assuming this is the same for the other Drag Race series too.
To be more inclusive.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I am tempted to say that only black women are in a good position to judge whether comparing blackface and drag is acceptable.

I don't use the argument for this reason, as some black women find it offensive and there are other ways of expressing the same point. But I'm not particularly convinced by the argument that they are all that different.

Yes! I know that most people I know in folk music (I am a long term afficianado) including mumming, Border Morris, Molly dancing, don't consider their blackface to be racist, they believe in it's long history and UK industrial history. But many are now changing their views, blackface may now be blue or greenface, the disguise (if that ever really was the root of it) need no longer be coal dust, modern makeup has taken over.

A lady I vaguely know of did her thesis on it. She too is a participant in much folk, mumming, Border Morris, Molly dancing, etc. I suspect she wanted to find a definitive answer, but didn't and concluded that, given the very long history of black people in Britain, there was an definite element of othering, of 'recognising and diffusing the fear of the stranger' that was, no matter how understandable at the time, racist

There is a huge difference from a man dressing in sparkles, styling their hair (or wig if they don't have enough), and wearing clothes that in recent times have been typified as feminine and performing dance and songs and the 'drag' that I see on TV now.

The first is in the style of Priscilla, where the men wore bikini tops without faking breasts and wore 'showgirl' clothes is so very different from using derogatory language, having names that are horrific and hateful, and the like.

Friend listed a clip of his act. The whole gag was around some spray to stop his 'fanny' smelling.
It was repulsive.
How disgusting.

This thread has made me wonder how many drag queens would continue as drag queens if the ability to misogynistically mock women was removed and the focus was on performance value and costumes.

Ereshkigalangcleg interestingly British blackface also has roots in the oppression of India during the Empire era and used as a means of stereotyping and subjugating Indians through the portrayal of them as lesser human beings. It's not light hearted by any means. The black minstrel show in the 70s on UK TV draws straight from the US experience through the affectation of jazz personas and fake accents.

All black face performances can be traced back to the presentation of a negative stereotype used to subjugate another race.

@justawoman76

Interesting about RuPaul. Had anyone noticed that the 2May the best woman WIN!" part has now been changed to "may the best DRAG QUEEN WIN!". I wonder if something has changed there. Or maybe it's just because in the last season there was a FTM trans person (biological woman presenting as a gay male presenting as a woman). Maybe they found the "woman" part offensive. I DO remember as the previous poster, an interview with RuPaul saying that women could never be drag queens and that they would not be able to compete on his show. So I suppose that times have changed. There have been some previous contestants (I can think of three off the top of my head) who have since come out as trans. Not sure if that has changed his opinion but its all very confusing.

Yes I'm fairly sure they changed all that to be accommodating to trans contestants. RuPaul has had a lot of shit for his opinions about having non male contestants on drag race and was/ is considered transphobic himself for his stance. IIRC trans women contestants previously had to come out on or after the show as they wouldn't have got on otherwise.

You can see how the show has had to move with the times. Its fans and contestants are very young now and you can see the tedious effect that's had.

@Quaggars

It's very comparable with blackface. I have never heard anyone but a genderist asking that the comparison not be made

You can't be looking very hard then, as several people on this thread have said they find it offensive.
The Black Mumsnetters board has had several posters repeatedly saying how offensive it is to compare drag to blackface on several threads.
Not going to link to any, (as don't feel it's my place to link there) if you really are interested you can have a look.
If you use the MN search function and type in drag, you'll no doubt get tons of threads to have a look through, from Chat, to AIBU, to BMN.

As far as I am aware being black and believing gender ideology are not mutually exclusive. I don't think there is a monolithic viewpoint.

Besides I don't care what sex, race, gender a person is, their argument should be evaluated on it merits not on its standpoint epistemology ranking or the oppression score the identity of the person espousing them holds.

I am not undermining the severity of blackface, but it no longer exists. It isn't acceptable in 2021. Drag is not only accepted it is celebrated.

There are comparisons of kind, if not degree.

Engage with the actual arguement rather than hiding behind other peoples intersectional identities.

Removing the total lack of civil equality in the 1930's/40'/50's, which is not disputed, how is Black face different from drag in and of itself?

Why is dressing as a parody of sex for entertainment, different from dressing as a parody of race for entertainment?

Yes I find it highly offensive

I know it's not quite the same argument, but I wanted to bung it in to illustrate the differences in acceptance by the public.

@thepuredrop

And presumably you’d think a woman flattening her breasts and wearing a man’s suit is mocking men? How about old-face for actors who play someone older than they are?

Are women doing this and calling men cheesy? Are we celebrating it as a triumph of art? Lemme just check iPlayer to see the all-female cast of Drag Race, wherein Master Nocturnal Emission has beaten off rigorous competition from Undescended Testicle and Toxic Masculinity for pissing the furthest up a wall.
No, wait, I can’t.

Yes, this. There have always been molly houses etc where gay men have dressed as women: there have always been camp gay men dressing as women. But that's not drag. Drag is a hugely exaggerated image of womanhood developed to parody and insult women. It's not pantomime dame stuff.

Its presence at Pride has always been a blight. I'm a moderately butch-looking woman and I've been ridiculed by drag queens at Pride and at a pub where I've been celebrating my birthday. Pulled up on stage and made fun of because of the way I look and how I'm dressed. People stood by laughing because drag is funny, isn't it, then came up to me afterwards and apologised because they could see it was a verbal attack and they hadn't know what to do — because who argues with a 7-ft tall drag queen with weightlifter arms?

Just because gay men or lesbian women do certain things doesn't mean that it's all okay. There are limits. The pups aren't okay. Wandering around dressed as a baby isn't okay. Wearing chaps and a sock over your penis is not okay at a public event.

Many lesbian feminists have been quietly distancing themselves from Pride for years because of the misogynistic and paedodophilic undertones. Plenty of gay men are equally as disturbed by it. And I've never, ever, even at drag king events at lesbian-only events heard women talking about gay men with the disgust and contempt that some gay men talk about lesbians. It's misogyny through and through.

I am not undermining the severity of blackface, but it no longer exists
Just because you don't see it on telly any more, doesn't mean it's gone away.
That's like a toddler putting their hands over their eyes and because they can't see you any more, then you must have disappeared - not being an acceptable mainstream view any more doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Engage with the actual arguement rather than hiding behind other peoples intersectional identities
Oh just wow, lol.
I'd biscuit but I believe that's frowned upon nowadays.

It used to be considered funny to parody people with speech impediments etc. but fortunately we now know better. So why is it still ok for a group of men to parody women, implying that we are disgusting because our genitals stink , our bodies are saggy etc etc etc. ? Drag is the very epitome of misogyny.

That is horrific Shedbuilder. I am sorry that you experienced that, I am quite lost for words that someone was allowed get away with that.

Engage with the actual arguement rather than hiding behind other peoples intersectional identities
Oh just wow, lol.
I'd biscuit but I believe that's frowned upon nowadays.

The word "argument" is mistyped in @AdHominemNonSequitur's post, but other than that I see no reason to belittle the point.

Why "just LOL"?
And what's wrong with biscuits (I have genuinely missed this)?

There may be a case for standpoint theory adding to a position, but it can not replace reasoned argument. So what are the reasons? If you don't engage with the argument, then there is no argument.

@Quaggars

I am not undermining the severity of blackface, but it no longer exists Just because you don't see it on telly any more, doesn't mean it's gone away. That's like a toddler putting their hands over their eyes and because they can't see you any more, then you must have disappeared - not being an acceptable mainstream view any more doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Engage with the actual arguement rather than hiding behind other peoples intersectional identities
Oh just wow, lol.
I'd biscuit but I believe that's frowned upon nowadays.

You’re probably ok, Quaggers-I think it’s only GC voices that are so heavily policed. Knock yourself out with the hammy dodgers.

Oh ffs. Jammy dodgers.

Shedbuilder.

I think that neatly illustrates the misogynistic mindset held by many men who perform drag.

JustSpeculation, I'm guessing, 'Wow, just wow' and 'Lol' are the new 'No debate' (ie 'I can't discuss this any further because I have no rational argument')

Ultimately I don't think there's one type of drag, or drag artist.

I think the vast majority are gay men who find comfort and kinship in outwardly displaying the feminity they probably struggled with as a child (other children, especially boys, aren't known for historically being particularly welcoming to boys who are effeminate). They probably did (and still do) receive a lot of abuse for non being your stereotypical manly man, and having 'feminine' interests like dance, sewing etc.

To then create and display an act that is based on extreme stereotypical feminity is in that sense an act of bravery. They're reclaiming something about themselves that they used to be belittled for, and forming a community.

Of course not all drag queens are gay and not all gay men like drag, but for those who do: have at it, I say.

I get why people think it's misogynistic (because they're often wearing boobs and talking about smelly fannies etc) and some women feel they're ultimately men punching down and mocking women for their mannerisms and bodies. I don't share this view. I would wonder how many people who have drag queens in their social circle would think what they're doing is mockery, rather than an exaggerated expression of one side of their character.

Society itself is misogynistic, otherwise 'feminine' men wouldn't face discrimination. Feminity and womanhood in general are widely seen as 'less' than masculinity and manhood. But I think that's a deeper issue, and accusing drag queens of perpetuating it is focusing energy on the wrong group. They don't need any more hate directed toward them. They're not the bad guys in this situation. If they want to dress as comically slutty women whose boobs keep bouncing fully out of their clothes and who keep having to pause their act to 'give birth' and then throw the baby into the audience because it's 'another black one' then... ok yes that particular example is very offensive but it's A) an extreme example and not representative of drag as a whole and B) one of the funniest things I've ever seen. The sort of 'funny because it's so offensive' humour that would go down like a lead balloon on here.

I don't know. I just think 'Women v Drag Queens' isn't a fight anyone is going to win. We both suffer because of the same system and we all know what that is.

334bu It is almost like a group has assumed they are the more oppressed and so can get away with this, isn't it. That it is just another form of male's oppressing females is completely minimised and downplayed. Even on this thread.

I am still waiting for a female comedian example where they refer to others by the smell of their penises, and taking on names mocking men's body parts, bodily functions, reproductive needs, and their murders, assaults etc.

Anyone? Because, if there are female's out there doing that, I would like to know as that would be just as unacceptable. Even worse if it was on TV and being celebrated as liberation for anyone, but I bet it wouldn't be described as liberating for any males.

That is a good point. They are different. I expect there would be a high degree of overlap between people who object to blackface/ drag comparisons and trans racial /transgender comparisons though.

There is something in ridiculing other peoples identity Vs wanting the identity for yourself, I think the former is darker in its motivations and extrapolating that point I suppose blackface was never born out of a place of wanting to be black, where as drag was maybe born more out of the parody and expression of feminine aspect of self (originally) or wanting to be.

On that basis too I agree the comparison falls short.

However blackface is no longer accepted, drag is and there are still overlaps. If the words we use to describe ourselves and our very existence as a political class were not being threatened, if we didn't seem to be regressing in equality to porn addled, gender soaked nonsense, I might be more disposed to thinking it as harmless fun.

Which is if course exactly what the arguements for blackface were when challenged. Harmless fun.

Much of the blatant misogyny exhibited in the 'fishy' references and derogatory names are NOT self depracating.

The drag I used to see at Rugby club Christmas dos growing up, was not coming from a respectful place. It wasn't feminine men expressing that in defiance of an unwelcoming society, it was pure objectification and ridicule with a sprinkling of paraphilia .

Quaggars. If someone attempted blackface, they would be universally denounced and action could and would be taken under civil discrimination law. It is illegal and socially unacceptable. Drag race on the other hand is on primetime TV as we speak .