Drag and misogyny

[SnowWouldHelp]

Do you find drag as a concept misogynistic? It came up on Thinking Allowed where it was compared to blackface and I realised I'd never thought of it like that. I haven't actually any seen any either so I don't know much about it and wondered what other people thought.

I am likely to experience sexual harassment though but that’s something separate.

How so? Why does it not fit into the category of abuse that gender-conforming women get?

I remember reading about a survey which showed that the sheer number of negative female stereotypes out there for anyone to use against women is far greater and wide-ranging than those available to denigrate men. I believe a PP listed some above.

Effeminate men also face abuse because they don’t conform.

And who abuses them? And why?

The quickest way for one man to insult another man is to liken him to a girl.

It is an insult to the effeminate man yes, but it is an insult to all women.

If you think a drag Queen is acting stereotypically female, that’s quite worrying too.

That’s the point. It’s what they and others perceive as stereotypically female. It’s not what women are actually like.

Stop appropriating racism. It’s not a huge thing to ask and it makes you look like a dick when you insist that you feel equally violated to black people with their brutal history because you don’t like RuPaul.

It doesn’t have to be exactly equal to suffer from the same principle: that of a dominant group mocking and parodying a group they have historically oppressed.

And do women not have a brutal history too?

@FictionalCharacter
I too have always thought drag is a demeaning and ugly parody of women.

That’s the point. It’s what they and others perceive as stereotypically female. It’s not what women are actually like.

Exactly. And someone in fake breasts is not parodying an 'effeminate man'.

I didn't used to till I started seeing more of it and started getting worse. Eg relating to miscarriage etc.

How can people say drag isn't misogynistic?

The word 'fishy' is used for drag queens that pass the best as an actual woman for fucks sake.

And then we have the drag names like 'Anna Bortion' and 'Cheryl Hole'.

And the whole thing is based on stereotypes about women being bitchy.

Not misogynistic my arse.

The quickest way for one man to insult another man is to liken him to a girl.

True. Or in some cases, girls' and women's clothing - see 'big girl's blouse'.

This topic has been done to death already. No-one is forcing you to watch drag, and saying its the same as blackface is pretty offensive.

No-one is forcing you to watch drag

You could say that about anything, though, couldn't you?

I used to find Paul O Grady as Lily Savage funny. I used to find Barry Humphries as Dame Edna funny. Pantomime Dames are usually the baddie and appear to provide some mildly adult comedy.

I don't think that is what drag is now so like many things it has changed.

Now drag includes 'live abortions' being performed on stage and drag artists modelling themselves on murdered children (JonBenét Ramsey). That may be the extreme end of drag with the more mainstream end provided by the BBC and drag queens asking kids their pronouns at story time in libraries with twerking demonstrations.

I don't find any of that funny.

Drag is misogynistic, there really is no argument against that that holds up.

It is men punching down, it is not ‘men admiring women’.

How many drag queens are there that represent actual women and the more ‘caring’ roles we tend to have? A drag queen dressed as a nurse, a teacher, a care assistant, a mother? Nope.

If men want to wear dresses and make up, fine, have at it. They don’t need to use fake boobs to do that, and they don’t have to refer to women’s genitalia. They don’t have to mock women in order to dress in an effeminate way, but they do.

And I am so sick of hearing Zoe Ball go on about RuPaul’s Drag Race like it’s the second bloody coming, but that might be my dislike of Zoe Ball shining through!

Black men don't want us to compare dressing up as gross charactures of women with offensive 'female' names and mocking women as 'entertainment' as anything like black face?

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

Some of it is certainly highly misogynistic.

Take this list of names. Entrants include "Malestia Child" and "Anna Bortion".
www.pride.com/comedy/2019/7/19/18-funniest-drag-queen-names#media-gallery-media-16

I've also come across one whose stage name was "Miss Carriage".

There's a drag act called Jon Benet. As in, named after the murdered child. He wears a blonde wig

www.instagram.com/jonbenetblonde/?hl=en

FightingtheFoo

I might be sick. Who on earth books his act?!

@TheLovleyChebbyMcGee

This topic has been done to death already. No-one is forcing you to watch drag, and saying its the same as blackface is pretty offensive.

Why is it offensive? How is it any different?

Seriously, I'm looking for a reasonable explanation of how the two are different.

Oh my god - naming yourself after a murdered little girl? And people fawning over it all.

Nope, no misogyny to see here at all....

@Tibtom

Black men don't want us to compare dressing up as gross charactures of women with offensive 'female' names and mocking women as 'entertainment' as anything like black face?

Nobody's said anything about black men finding it offensive to compare to blackface? Just that plenty of black people, including women, have repeatedly said on Mumsnet that they find it an offensive comparison.

Some female impersonators are very talented. I saw a whole two hour a whole two hour show of song and dance routines once. Like the old musicals.

Others just want to do offensive jokes.

We should celebrate the first type. And condemn the second.

(Same with Drag Queen Story Time... Dress up as a character. Not a bizarre iterpretation of women. And no abusive names. Then people won't complain about how inappropriate it is)

I detest drag as I feel it's mocking and belittling me and women in general

It makes makes my skin crawl. Women are ridiculed and mocked

Every time I hear this argument all I think is that these people obviously think makeup and dresses are inherently female. Drag queens don’t claim to be female.

Why are people posting this disingenuous rubbish? Claiming it’s just dresses and make up, and women don’t own that. So they don’t call each other she then? They don’t mock women? They don’t make misogynistic comments and jokes? They don’t play up to the worst stereotypes of women? It’s just dresses.
Bullshit.

Why is it offensive? How is it any different?

The difference is that women's oppression is lower on the pyramid.

Millenia of sexual violence, forced marriages, menstrual exclusion, domestic violence and coercion, mutilation, slavery, domestic drudgery, enforced childcare, unequal pay, medical inequalities, religious blame, disenfranchisement, disrespect, sex trafficking, exclusion from work and education, urinary leashes, discrimination, reproductive restrictions, honor killings, belittling of femininity, unequal inheritance rights, selective abortions/abandonments, proportional unrepresentation, restricted movements, harassment, sexualisation, infatalisation, powerlessness etc

don't count. Because women always come second.

Nobody's said anything about black men finding it offensive to compare to blackface? Just that plenty of black people,

Are men not people?

Are men not people
Sorry, not an actual clue what you're talking about now.
Of course men are people.
I was just pointing out that black people, as in both men and women (not just men that you seem to think it is in your post) have repeatedly said it is an offensive comparison.