Drag and misogyny

[SnowWouldHelp]

Do you find drag as a concept misogynistic? It came up on Thinking Allowed where it was compared to blackface and I realised I'd never thought of it like that. I haven't actually any seen any either so I don't know much about it and wondered what other people thought.

And while being a man is not viewed in derogatory terms, a woman who is masculine, who has short hair, no makeup, doesn’t shave legs or armpit isn’t admired. The fact of not conforming to expectations brings about abuse on its own.

They’re celebrating the “effeminate” and “other”, not saying it’s a bad thing. This is despite any abuse they receive, it’s not about celebrating and upholding their abusers it’s about sticking it to gender norms. At least that’s the drag I go to

Why would being effeminate be a bad thing, if being female was seen as a good and equal thing

I think you're conflating two things there
as in the way women are treated and men and toxic masculinity.
Just because a lot of men have a problem with effeminate ones, doesn't mean that queens must be doing it because they don't like women or femininity and are doing it to take the piss.
Maybe, as a lot of people do, they're just expressing themselves.

Cross posted with @Backstreetsbackalrightdadada who said basically what I was trying to but much more succinctly and less waffly lol

It seems the drag king equivalent of 'fishy' which is 'beef' or 'beefy' doesn't have anything to do with the smell of male genitalia. But the female equivalent does, with its connotations of shaming women. How strange.

but people don’t tend to shout abuse at or try to beat up gender-conforming women.

You're joking, right?

Waitwhat23 I’m not going to support misandry or misogyny, so what’s your point? I don’t want to hear slurs about anyone’s genitalia, it’s not some gross tit for tat

I don't want to hear slurs about anyone's genitalia

This. This is my point. Women don't want to hear the slurs about their genitalia as used routinely in drag. Because its misogynistic.

And that’s why I call it out in shows... not all drag is misogynistic, if I hear anything bad I make a complaint. Particularly the new generation aren’t like that. How many shows do you go to typically?

I think there is a vast difference between merely dressing/grooming in a feminine way and what the drag scene does. It's just so mean-spirited towards women. The jokes, the names, the deliberate exaggerations, all set on lampooning women and female/feminine culture (and duh not all women are feminine but that doesn't diminish the intention).

I don't buy the 'just mocking the abuse we get' angle because they themselves are mocking an oppressed class in response. I don't mind having a laugh but in drag our bodies and our experiences are routinely the butt of the joke, and if it was any other minority or oppressed group that an entire comedic culture rested on ridiculing then society would rightly be outraged.

It depends, I think. Old style drag certainly has misogynistic undertones to me - the cartoonishly large fake boobs, cartoonishly overdone make-up & nails etc. It makes me think that they're laughing at women, especially older, larger women. On the other hand some aspects of more stylish drag, when it's a man expressing his style in a flamboyant way, can be really stunning e.g. thinking about how amazing Billy Porter looks at the Oscars.

Done well, it's a great way for men to express their flamboyant side, something men rarely get to do due to boring dress standards. Done badly, it's horribly misogynistic and offensive.

Women are mocked and abused for gender-conforming presentation and behaviour, dumb blonde airheads, Karens, crazy cat ladies, soccer moms, blue-rinsed brigades, Kardashian-wannabes, Valley/Essex girl sluts, frigid bitches, bunny boilers, etc. There was even a derogatory term for straight women who had lots of gay male friends.
To take stereotypes of women and create an art form from mocking them is not something I’m inclined to celebrate, regardless of the sexuality of the male performer.

You go to see shows where you often have to complain about the misogyny used? I wouldn't go to see a show or comedian where it is likely that they are going to misogynistic in the same way that I wouldn't go to see a show where the performer is likely to make derisive comments about other minorities or oppressed groups.

@thepuredrop

Women are mocked and abused for gender-conforming presentation and behaviour, dumb blonde airheads, Karens, crazy cat ladies, soccer moms, blue-rinsed brigades, Kardashian-wannabes, Valley/Essex girl sluts, frigid bitches, bunny boilers, etc. There was even a derogatory term for straight women who had lots of gay male friends. To take stereotypes of women and create an art form from mocking them is not something I’m inclined to celebrate, regardless of the sexuality of the male performer.

Well said!

I've always found it "creepy" if I'm honest.

Even as a pre-teen I watched "performances" by the likes of Danny La Rue and in later years by Lily Savage and found them uncomfortable viewing.

I could never at the time describe why.

Now I "get it".

It's not the "over pretending" to be female that "gets" me.

It's the use of stereotypical female tropes and worse offensive "banter" that pisses me off that trivialises womanhood.

@Interestedparty132

No and black women have repeatedly asked for people to stop conflating the two. It’s nothing like blackface. Makeup and dresses don’t inherently belong to women and drag queens don’t claim to be literal women.

The race point is a good one. It does piss black people off.

I think the massive inherent misogyny of drag can be discussed without that comparison.

Make up and dresses. No. Tits though? Going with a yes.

I grew up with Leslie Dawson hooking his bosom, Monty python playing female stereotypes for laughs. Kenny Everett- Cupid stunt. With the massive tits and the leg spreading.

I also never liked panto.

I was too young to look into why I felt this way. But the hilarious men dressed as women for laughs thing always made me really uncomfortable.

Yes of course it's a caricature of stereotypes of women. On the gay male scene ok a lot of history and subversiveness etc.

Note though that the look is usually a certain way.

Note that stereotypical negative female traits are a big thing.

More recently. On s thread someone mentioned a queen called Cheryl hole. How fucking disrespectful. The actual Cheryl. The one whose name has been turned to Cunt by a man. Laughed I think? What else could she do? And does that make it ok?

Cheryl hole FFS. Hilarious!

It's misogynist shit. Gay scene fine. Mainstream? No. Back to the 70s. Little girls sitting there thinking everyone is laughing and it's on the telly so it must be ok but. Why don't I like it?

But hey as long as some are fishy it's all cool I suppose.

@thepuredrop

Women are mocked and abused for gender-conforming presentation and behaviour, dumb blonde airheads, Karens, crazy cat ladies, soccer moms, blue-rinsed brigades, Kardashian-wannabes, Valley/Essex girl sluts, frigid bitches, bunny boilers, etc. There was even a derogatory term for straight women who had lots of gay male friends. To take stereotypes of women and create an art form from mocking them is not something I’m inclined to celebrate, regardless of the sexuality of the male performer.

You've summed up my thoughts far more eloquently than I was able.

Thank you 😊 😘👏

You don't see drag queens with normal names that don't poke fun at women, or build them up. You don't see them being kind or funny in a non-bitchy way (like most of us can be.). It's like they only see the Mrs Slocombe traits (that I have never, ever seen in any real women) and exaggerate them for laughs. I have never accused any female of having stinky bits. My friends build each other up - I simply don't hang out with people who aren't like that. I don't like people that bring a heavy or fake energy. We're all too busy running families and working to bother with the drama. I can't see how it's not misogynistic.

@thepuredrop

And presumably you’d think a woman flattening her breasts and wearing a man’s suit is mocking men? How about old-face for actors who play someone older than they are?

Are women doing this and calling men cheesy? Are we celebrating it as a triumph of art? Lemme just check iPlayer to see the all-female cast of Drag Race, wherein Master Nocturnal Emission has beaten off rigorous competition from Undescended Testicle and Toxic Masculinity for pissing the furthest up a wall.
No, wait, I can’t.

Exactly this. Thank you @thepuredrop. Made me laugh and is an excellent comparison.

If someone had told me in 1980 that in 2020 this or The Bachelor and other such fluff would be classed as entertainment on Telly, I’d think they’d been sniffing glue.

I’m sure some drag is misogynistic. But I don’t think that makeup and a dress is the essence of femaleness or even should be restricted to the province of females. I suspect lots of issues with drag but it would need to be better distilled. No issue with anyone wearing a dress.

I know that there is a huge problem in Hollywood with women being “Aged up” instead of casting women in that actual demographic. It is blatant ageism. Nobody’s pretending that doesn’t exist. I think you cease to be a sexual being once you turn 39 there, don’t you? Meanwhile, the competitive snarkiness is not something I am at all comfortable with as a symbol of femininity. Women have cutting wit, but it’s different to that. It’s not debasing in a locker room way. I feel like they can’t let go of the dick jokes, they’ve just made them gynaecological in a way that we never would.

The race point is a good one. It does piss black people off.

I think this is true. And this conflation leads to a weak counterargument that because drag is not as offensive as blackface (allegedly) , it is not offensive at all. It's the nonsensical idea that if there is someone more oppressed that you around, then you are not really being oppressed, that if someone is further up the "hierarchy of oppression", then anything they do is somehow not offensive. I see an implicit assertion that effeminate gay men are somehow more oppressed than women, and therefore may express themselves in ways that women are not allowed to complain about.

Drag is offensive in and of itself. It makes fun of women. It reduces women to a few deeply offensive and untrue characteristics - untrue in the sense that bitchiness, foolishness, vanity, obsession with decoration and so on are not female exclusive traits.

To use stage names such as Anna Bortion, Miss Carriage and Cheryl Hole is vile, degrading and just sick. There is nothing whatsoever to celebrate in this.

I dislike drag.

I think it is disingenuous to say that dresses aren't 'inherently' for women. In 21st century Western culture, yes, these are articles of clothing worn almost exclusively by women. Men who wear dresses are extremely rare. When a bunch of schoolboys wore skirts a few years ago, they made the news. Drag Queens are hardly wandering around in kilts (a skirt-like garment that is socially acceptable for men to wear).

Also, when drag queens wear fake breasts and use names like 'Anna', 'Victoria' and 'Cheryl', they are imitating women. It's silly to pretend they aren't. They aren't using 'effeminate' boys' names like Percival or Gaylord.

The comparison with blackface is a tricky one. I am white myself, so it is not for me to decide whether it is an offensive comparison. I would say that whenever the topic has been debated on Mumsnet before, there has been a mixture of views. I have seen black women agree that it is a fair comparison. Others consider it to be offensive. Personally, currently I am inclined to think there are certain parallels in that you have a traditionally dominant group of people dressing up to mock a non-dominant group, whilst recognising that there is a particular history to blackface that is not present in drag.

Yes, women dress up as men and mock ED etc. That's not my humour. I wouldn't watch it. I don't like humour which mocks groups of other people full stop. However, in general, society recognises that humour that 'punches up' is different from humour that 'punches down'. In the case of drag Kings, you have a non-dominant class of people (women) stereotyping and mocking the traditionally dominant class (men). Now, like I say, I don't like humour like that - I don't think it contributes to a respectful society, but that is the difference.

@Waitwhat23

but people don’t tend to shout abuse at or try to beat up gender-conforming women.

You're joking, right?

Not the same. If I walk round visibly non-conforming, ie short hair, masculine clothes, I will be a target as someone who doesn’t conform to stereotypes. I might get called dyke or bitch or similar by people on the street. If I am gender-conforming, I won’t face that. I don’t get abuse because of presenting differently to how people expect. I am likely to experience sexual harassment though but that’s something separate. Therefore, despite males being revered in society, females who dress or present like males are not treated better.

Effeminate men also face abuse because they don’t conform. Like GNC women, they are targets because they don’t dress or act as expected.

This is relatively basic stuff. You’re trying to argue that effeminate men and women face the same thing but that people only care about the men. That’s not true.

@thepuredrop

Women are mocked and abused for gender-conforming presentation and behaviour, dumb blonde airheads, Karens, crazy cat ladies, soccer moms, blue-rinsed brigades, Kardashian-wannabes, Valley/Essex girl sluts, frigid bitches, bunny boilers, etc. There was even a derogatory term for straight women who had lots of gay male friends. To take stereotypes of women and create an art form from mocking them is not something I’m inclined to celebrate, regardless of the sexuality of the male performer.

Not the same as the abuse that GNC people, male or female, get for not conforming to stereotype.

If you think a drag Queen is acting stereotypically female, that’s quite worrying too.

Stop appropriating racism. It’s not a huge thing to ask and it makes you look like a dick when you insist that you feel equally violated to black people with their brutal history because you don’t like RuPaul.