Girl guiding

[nevernotstruggling]

I've just had an email about the new inclusivity and diversify and blah plan. Is it different?

[KatieAlcock]

Both of those things (no permanent leader, and girls moving to different units) say to me that unit won't be open long. Can you move your DD to a different unit?
Complaints directly to GG do nothing, but they are official policy. Leaders like Helen Watts and me and many others complained before we took to social media (in a whispery voice in my case, and they decided I hadn't breached guidelines) and it did nothing but it's within GG guidelines.

[Beamur]

I would be very surprised if someone hasn't already emailed them SlipperyLizard
But, if you wanted to,. I would just say something along the lines of saying you had seen the comments on Facebook and this is the report being referred to. Make no personal comments if you're concerned about repercussions.

[TedImgoingmad]

It's occurred to me that when GGUK created the trans inclusion policy, they must have envisaged that there would always be a biological female leader acting as a gatekeeper/ policewoman to watch over the actions of any trans leaders or guides.

But presumably, there is no bar to 2 or 3 transwomen setting up and running a unit, and being completely in charge of safekeeping and risk assessment. And filling it with transgirls of their choice, as they will have control over the waiting list.

If that would not be possible, why not? Either transwomen are women, and, with clean a DBS and leadership qualification, can set up and run a unit on their own, or they are not, and GGUK do not believe their own mantras.

[FakeColinCaterpillar]

I know my daughters guide leader personally and she says that they are trouble financially (especially after Covid) we’ve been asked to pay all our fees even when they haven’t met as Guides say they need the money to survive.

If a boy came into my daughters Guide group I can guarantee most of them would quit. DD loves Guides for one reason, no boys. I know girls attend Scouts etc but for DD she has to put up with boys taking over everything all day in school, this is a safe place.

[SlipperyLizard]

@KatieAlcock

Both of those things (no permanent leader, and girls moving to different units) say to me that unit won't be open long. Can you move your DD to a different unit?
Complaints directly to GG do nothing, but they are official policy. Leaders like Helen Watts and me and many others complained before we took to social media (in a whispery voice in my case, and they decided I hadn't breached guidelines) and it did nothing but it's within GG guidelines.

Thanks Katie, she has moved to a different unit too (I must have been the only one not to get the memo, as a few girls moved up at the same time as her but all to different units!) - at first we dropped her back down to brownies while she waited for others from school to move up/pondered what to do (she’s one of the older ones in the year), then covid hit and she’s recently started online with a different unit.

I must say what I’ve seen of the new badge system doesn’t inspire me, either, but becoming a mixed sex org while claiming to be a single sex org is my key concern.

Surely a boy who doesn’t identify as trans would have a claim for discrimination if they refused him membership, as their claim to be a single sex org in accordance with Equality Act exception is false?

Even if complaints are ignored, the more they get the more worried they will be.

[TedImgoingmad]

Surely a boy who doesn’t identify as trans would have a claim for discrimination if they refused him membership, as their claim to be a single sex org in accordance with Equality Act exception is false?

That is entirely correct under the actual law.

But GGUK believe in Stonewall law, where self ID is a protected characteristic, and under 18s can self ID as trans and be afforded the protection of the laws on discrimination. This is completely wrong, as Essex Uni have confirmed.

[MrsFin]

It's such a shame. GG used to be a fantastic organisation but it's lost it's way so badly recently.

[nevernotstruggling]

The thing gg can't control is membership. Based on the fb comments looks like membership is at significant risk.

[Whinge]

@nevernotstruggling

The thing gg can't control is membership. Based on the fb comments looks like membership is at significant risk.

I agree. A lot of leaders have left citing the pandemic as the reason. (A handy get out) Around my way we've had several units close or merge due to lack of leaders / volunteers. I suspect we're not the only area to have declining numbers.

[TropicalFairyCake]

I can see guiding becoming far smaller and this being blamed on covid when there are of course all these reasons. Noone logged our reason for leaving for example

[Needmoresleep]

Veterans of this board will remember the GG trans policy first being formed.

This is what Glinner has to say about Aimee Challenor’s involvement. As I recall, Challenor rose to become vice Chair of Stonewall’s trans advisory committee. Their father had a strong interest in the Boy Scouts before receiving a long prison sentence for shocking child abuse.

“Girlguiding denies that any input from Aimee via Stonewall influenced this policy change but Aimee was on the Trans Advisory Panel when the advice was given. Aimee appeared to emphasise his connection to Girlguiding by posting a photo of himself with a Girlguiding donators’ badge in 2019.”

And on p22 of this important thread

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3314566-another-girlguiding-update

was pombear’s post

“And yes, many of us remember that HoC panel 'advising' GG that included Jane Fae and Pips Bunce. Two middle-to-late-age males who have defined themselves as women, either 'full-time' or 'part-time' advising GirlGuiding.

Both Jane Fae and Phil have daughters.”

I remember seeing a photo of a meeting discussing GG inclusion policy at the Speakers house when John Brecon was speaker, including Pips Bunce, city banker and part time woman, but can’t immediately find it.

[severnboring]

GG's new Digital Editor says GG is a 'femme-only space'

twitter.com/lowietrevena/status/1397605655868018695

''Some people have been curious as to why I'm joining Girlguiding as a trans/non-binary person!! It has been a massive part of my life as an AFAB person and I want to continue to make it more accessible, inclusive and diverse
I can't sum up my feelings about this particularly eloquently, but they are a truly trans-inclusive organisation (as a femme-only space) and I would never work for anyone less. Read through this if you're still curious: girlguiding.org.uk/making-guiding
And this hasn't changed!! Girlguiding have ALWAYS welcome trans women (and queer women!!), it's in their policies! they have put SO MUCH more on the website (and in their members' info) since I left, but even when I did, they STILL had info about trans members of the organisation
I know it could seem strange! But staff members of all genders are welcome!! men can be volunteers !! uniformed organisations are INTERESTING (I'm sure i'll go into this another time) but HOT DAMN i would not be working for a charity that doesn't fully support trans people
Last one!! I cannot tell you how much i want to help organisations like Girlguiding be better, and this is something that this charity is open to being (better, I mean)! more reading for you on this lovely Wednesday: girlguiding.org.uk/about-us/diversity-and-inclusion/''

[EmbarrassingAdmissions]

@Needmoresleep

Veterans of this board will remember the GG trans policy first being formed.

This is what Glinner has to say about Aimee Challenor’s involvement. As I recall, Challenor rose to become vice Chair of Stonewall’s trans advisory committee. Their father had a strong interest in the Boy Scouts before receiving a long prison sentence for shocking child abuse.

“Girlguiding denies that any input from Aimee via Stonewall influenced this policy change but Aimee was on the Trans Advisory Panel when the advice was given. Aimee appeared to emphasise his connection to Girlguiding by posting a photo of himself with a Girlguiding donators’ badge in 2019.”

And on p22 of this important thread

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3314566-another-girlguiding-update

was pombear’s post

“And yes, many of us remember that HoC panel 'advising' GG that included Jane Fae and Pips Bunce. Two middle-to-late-age males who have defined themselves as women, either 'full-time' or 'part-time' advising GirlGuiding.

Both Jane Fae and Phil have daughters.”

I remember seeing a photo of a meeting discussing GG inclusion policy at the Speakers house when John Brecon was speaker, including Pips Bunce, city banker and part time woman, but can’t immediately find it.

This photo?

twitter.com/greengranma/status/1043851862519291905

[Needmoresleep]

Yes, that was it. And sorry. John Bercow.

[EmbarrassingAdmissions]

@Needmoresleep

Yes, that was it. And sorry. John Bercow.

Is that AC (black-trousered leg, spectacles) at the lefthand side, near to the table?

[MrsOvertonsWindow]

That thread by GGs 'digital editor' is a classic example of how TRAs use charities to further their own personal demands. Not a word about the charity and its aims, or the client group - girls. Not a scintilla of interest. It's all about the individual and how they will use the charity to further their narcissistic demands.

It's enraging to see charities used like this. It happens repeatedly and charities are so captured (or scared) that they dare not challenge anyone - including their own staff - who openly use the name, status and wealth of the charity for their own narrow egotistical ends.

[TheElementsSong]

GG is a 'femme-only space'

WTF.

[Beamur]

I don't think I would describe GG as a femme only space.

[Tibtom]

@TheElementsSong

GG is a 'femme-only space'

WTF.

GG started because non-gender-conforming girls wanted to do the fun stuff boys were getting to do. But now this? 'Femme' always strikes me as a sexual thing so this and young girls???!!!

[Beamur]

I think they've missed the point of GG by many miles.

[Tibtom]

Also if their digital editor is 'trans AFAB' then surely they don't qualify?

[Beamur]

The dictionary definition of femme is feminine presenting, gay or straight, male or female.
That really isn't the case in GG

[KatieAlcock]

Ironically she couldn't be a leader. She's a woman but she doesn't identify as one. Not very trans inclusive, hey?
I have pointed this out to her.

[Beamur]

I don't know anything about the editor, but don't forget you can be trans AFAB, identity as male but still choose to have a feminine gender presentation. Just because you can.

[drspouse]

@Tibtom

Also if their digital editor is 'trans AFAB' then surely they don't qualify?

Anyone can be a staff member, only adults who identify as women can be leaders (i.e. some females can't be leaders).