Girl guiding

[nevernotstruggling]

I've just had an email about the new inclusivity and diversify and blah plan. Is it different?

[NiceGerbil]

Yes they did. Trans boys and noon binary boys as well. Any female child who didn't strongly internally identity with the 'identity' girl.

They backtracked on that for non binary children I think.

However what to do about trans boys in the GG is not something I saw mentioned. (I didn't go through it with a fine tooth comb though).

[KatieAlcock]

Girls no longer have to identify as girls to be members but leaders must identify as women. So only women who subscribe to gender ideology can be leaders. We don't have to believe in God, only in the Genderbread person.

By the way my solicitor, same as Maya's, is moving firm. Get your Google fingers and your spades ready.

[persistentwoman]

How painful to see such a respected institution for girls having been captured in this way - and when you look at the organisations / individuals behind all this - so grim.

[MaryGubbins]

Also (as I never said I wasn’t a bit sad) I stayed in guides till I was 18 (was called a ranger guide back in the last century). I used to do the odd regional/national camp where you pitched up solo and got put in a tent with unknown girls from another unit.

Doesn’t sound such a great idea now does it?

[NiceGerbil]

The thing I don't get it that

The women who volunteer their time to do the on the ground work. Do it because they have an interest in doing stuff for girls. That's feministy even if they don't see themselves that way.

The ones I know are all very down to earth sensible types.

I can't see them being terribly on board with this when it comes to the crunch. If they aren't before that.

And all the stuff about how they've failed at welcoming all and taking account of stuff like religion. The racism stuff. The massive apologies for being so awful.

Isn't that just s massive massive kick in the teeth for all those women who have volunteered their time, waded through all the paperwork, delivered activities to girls week after week, often for years?

Did they even think of that? What they are actually suggesting about their volunteers?

[Sittinonthesand]

Exactly nice! I read that email about how ‘we’ aren’t welcoming etc and I’m one of the volunteers- they were apologising at us for our collective actions. And the guide leaders I know are extremely sensible who put loads of effort in to help girls! And yes maybe Guides isn’t going to appeal to ‘everyone’ of course it isn’t! Nothing is! But it does welcome all girls who want to join. I’ve never heard of any accusations of leaders not being inclusive. I do know a few grumpy leaders who might put people off, but they are equally grumpy to everyone and it’s generally because no one ever thanks them.
I have no idea who the people at head office are, what they say has so little resemblance to what the women running units think and do - I can’t think where they come from. I don’t think I can be bothered to volunteer anymore.

[Waitwhat23]

I really feel for the women who have given enormous amounts of their own time as Leaders to be then thrown under the bus by HQ by being described as unwelcoming (as Sittinonthesand has mentioned above).

I was involved in Guiding from Rainbow to Young Leader. Always assumed I would volunteer as a Leader once I had kids. Now I do and not only won't my daughter be attending but I won't be volunteering either due to all this single gender safeguarding nightmare.

As well as pissing off and losing experienced Leaders, they are putting off those who would consider being Leaders in the future. Is this why there has been relentless adverts for recruitment of GG volunteers on Facebook lately?

[AppleKatie]

Isn't that just s massive massive kick in the teeth for all those women who have volunteered their time, waded through all the paperwork, delivered activities to girls week after week, often for years?

Yes, it is!

[Whiskersokittens]

Girl Guides was the making of me. I had a shit childhood home and here was somewhere I could be myself, learn adventurous, non- stereotyped activities and leadership skills.

It gave me confidence I would never otherwise have had and ultimately led to a successful career.

I always thought I would give back by becoming a volunteer and an appeal for volunteers keeps appearing on my Facebook feed. I've taken early retirement and am looking for a volunteering role where I can make a difference.

But the fact it's no longer single sex and they don't listen to their volunteers' concerns about safeguarding, putting wokeness first, means this isn't an organisation I can be part of.

I wonder how many other women like me feel the same?

No matter I suppose, they can always target their efforts at transwomen looking for validation. ☹️

[Sittinonthesand]

Wait - I believe a lot of volunteers have left. A new programme was introduced a few years ago and it’s been very unpopular. A move away from the adventurous, challenging non-stereotyped girls like whiskers loved to much more focus on the environment, campaigning, loads of writing and talking about feelings. Lots of stuff making the girls feel they are responsible for plastic pollution and saving the planet. My own dd says it’s too like school. It’s also no longer girl- led as they have to complete all these tedious activities to get any badges in meetings and get the ‘gold award’ (which has to be time consumingly recorded on a clunky website). Interest badges have been dumbed down and can’t be done in meetings. The interest badges also seem to assume everyone lives in a town and swimming, dancing etc have disappeared as they ‘weren’t inclusive’ - replaced by things like ‘craftivism’. Few of the girls do them.
When they get feedback from the girls they ask things like ‘do you care about the environment’ & ‘do you think people should be discriminated against.’ The girls obviously answer yes and no then gg uses that to justify their decisions. The questions are ridiculously phrased in order to get the results they want - it was literally a list of ‘what are you interested in from this list of current social issues’ with no options for just having fun/climbing/camping...

[SavingsQuestions]

Yep the curriculum change was a final straw for us.

Can't work towards planning a meal/swimming/ anything my girls did . But decorate a cake with a theme of a fairy tale. Wtf. Or activism. I think the gg were pretty revolutionary existig as a single sex space to do all the things. Having activism on the curriculum defeats that.

Its very much death by following their dumbed down syllabus and unfortunately leads to the belief I used to argue against that cubs/scouts do the more interesting activities. Now they quite literally do.... still allowed interests and challenges.

I too grew up in gg having camped and abseiled and felt safe from a complicated family and was so pleased of the space. Also got to try canoeing/loved the campfires and songs etc and sense of belonging.

We've pulled my girls and feel sad that mixed sex scouts is the only option. Its a real defeat for women. The chamce to explore and grow/try new activiriesin a single sex environment has gone.

[ChattyLion]

Wait what GGUK doesn’t do camping, fire lighting, all the rest of it, any more?

[WarriorN]

Cubs and scouts let girls in; they're "fully inclusive". I have no understanding of why trans identifying males can't go there.

There are specific biological reasons why guides and brownies are kept single sex.

This is about validation. Again.

[Beamur]

I had the email too.
Mixed feelings.
I'm glad that they have considered whether there's been historic problems around racism, etc. If suspect some of the homophobia they're apologising for could be against former leaders.
But the performative apology is a bit cringy and I think they keep losing sight of the fact that GG is largely delivered by kind, well meaning volunteers. There's only so much people can do and it does feel sometimes that volunteers are held to extraordinarily high standards.
One paragraph I actually found quite chilling in the new policy was about 'other laws' which to me, insinuated ways a volunteer could be told off for wrong think...
Whilst I am not personally happy with the way GG have interpreted the meaning of the word girl, I do still think it overall is a really good place for girls and young women.
Look forward to seeing the outcome of this legal challenge though.

[Sittinonthesand]

Chatty - I’m sure many units do still do campfires etc, but that would be outside the new programme. We do it because girls and leaders all love it! It doesn’t seem important to HQ!

[WarriorN]

@ChattyLion

Wait what GGUK doesn’t do camping, fire lighting, all the rest of it, any more?

Christ, that's appalling.

I went off guides pdq after loving brownies. It would have been pre curriculum change but the unit was dull and girl stereotypical.

Late 80's, Locally there was a tradition of village queens and a parade. I was chosen from guides and didn't have the foggiest what I was doing until actually on the waggon. I'd not been told about curtsying to the head queen either. Shuffled up and shuffled back.

Then watched dramatic flinging on the floor curtsies that had been practised for weeks. And felt like a shit failure in my over the top fluffy white bridesmaid dress.

I left not long after and thinking about it now, then cut all my hair off.

I MUCH preferred venture scouts as we actually did all that and it was mixed sex (though by 17 there's many reasons why we liked that!) I was invested on top of snowdon after climbing the hard way with a massive back pack and 10 m visibility.

I had many friends who's parents ran the scouts, and I think then girls could join. I just went on the odd outing and to discos.

[MarciaDidia]

My DD is leaving Brownies and starting Cubs because in the end there are only so many bird feeders you can make.

Everything they did was "girly". Then she went to a Cubs meeting with my son when I was on the Cubs parents' rota and couldn't get childcare for her and DD had a wild time running round, playing wide games etc. Cubs do night hikes, pitching tents etc. Brownies don't seem to do any of that.

[Beamur]

Units do vary according to the interests and skills of the girls and Leaders. The one DD attends is very active and outdoorsy and under normal circumstances would go camping several times a year.
There are lots of practical and camp based activities in the new programme as well as some updated ones.
Personally I rather like the majority of the new programme. There are a few dud ones but you're allowed to adapt and vary the content to suit your own group.
In my experience of the differences between Scouts and Guides - I do think Guides are a bit more risk averse with activities (more rules!).

[Aroundtheworldin80moves]

Apparently the Scout section of our Scout group is currently 75% girl.
Beavers also very girl heavy.
Cubs is only about a third girls (4) though, with two due to move up to Scouts this summer.

So Scouting definitely see to be appealing to girls locally. No idea about the numbers at Rainbows, Brownies and Guides though. (Locally it's still limited to 15 children per section based on hut size)

[ANewDawnANewDay]

They missed out misogyny in their long list. Is it because they are happy practising misogyny?

[KatieAlcock]

Some Scouts can be very boy heavy and/or have very old fashioned and sexist leaders. We can't assume that all men suddenly become non sexist as soon as they put on Scout uniform.
And yes, there are racist Guide leaders, and yes, Cubs make bird feeders and do art and Beavers use glitter...

[MarciaDidia]

@Beamur

Units do vary according to the interests and skills of the girls and Leaders. The one DD attends is very active and outdoorsy and under normal circumstances would go camping several times a year.
There are lots of practical and camp based activities in the new programme as well as some updated ones.
Personally I rather like the majority of the new programme. There are a few dud ones but you're allowed to adapt and vary the content to suit your own group.
In my experience of the differences between Scouts and Guides - I do think Guides are a bit more risk averse with activities (more rules!).

Yes, I normally take the view that if I want to change it, I should become a leader myself rather than criticise. DD has convinced herself that Cubs will bring fun beyond her wildest dreams, though.

[twelly]

The GG movement is a girls organisation - for girls. Scouts have allowed girls to join , GG did not. It should in my view remain a place for girls.

[TubeOfSmarties]

It’s not true that Brownies and Guides don’t go camping or light fires. My daughters are both involved and done all kinds of den building and nature stuff and camping in all weathers (including in the middle of winter) and hiking in the dark.

[Chrysanthemum5]

I was just coming on to post this - I see buried in the text (and I had to search pretty hard to find it) GG have confirmed that this is all based on self-ID. Which they erroneously claim is the law.

My daughter's GG troop is brilliant - they do a huge range of different things, and they were already very inclusive to girls from different religions, and couldn't be more accommodating of my daughter's autism.

However, the leaders are all young women and leaving all this up to them is completely unfair. What do they do if someone who is biologically male wants to become a leader? Do they just have to accept that the girls who are not allowed to be with men have to leave. I know leaders are DBS checked, but the form relies on individuals who identify as transgender phoning up to inform the DBS about previous names.

It's so infuriating. How can they witter on about the importance of a female-only space and then open it up to self-ID