Girl guiding

[nevernotstruggling]

I've just had an email about the new inclusivity and diversify and blah plan. Is it different?

[ChattyLion]

Thank you for the info about camping and outdoor skills and so glad it still happens even if not core curriculum any more. Thank you to everyone who volunteers for GGUK or has done so

I still wonder if there’s a charity commission case, where charities who list girls and women as their beneficiary group, then self ID that that group includes men and boys, without informing everyone and crucially without changing their legal charitable objectives.

[WarriorN]

Interestingly all the leaders at my son's Cubs / scouts bar one are women.

[Cailleach1]

I know leaders are DBS checked, but the form relies on individuals who identify as transgender phoning up to inform the DBS about previous names.

I was wondering about this. Can a person's previous offences still be seen, irrespective of whether they change their name? I don't care what the reason for the name change (or their identity belief) is as it is not about the person; it is for the safety of those around that person and the threat they may potentially pose.

[SlipperyLizard]

Like others, I’m utterly depressed by this. Our local leaders are, as far as I can tell, amazing women doing their best. There are a few girls with Down’s syndrome who attend, and are totally embraced, and a couple of girls with special needs (I don’t know them well enough to know what) in my DD’s guides who are clearly loved by the leaders. To be the subject of a blanket apology must be devastating for them personally.

Unfortunately there’s also a boy who attends one of the Guides groups. When DD joined it age 10 it was one of the first things I noticed, and when I discussed it with her it was clear she was thoroughly confused by it (her best friend is a boy so she wasn’t bothered). If covid hadn’t happened then there would have been a camp last year - how would this teenage boy have been accommodated in the tents? Would parents be told?

DD has since moved to a different evening, but it still preys on my mind not only that girls are being gaslit, but that this young boy is being prepared for a life of drugs and surgery by those “affirming” his identity.

Guides has truly lost its way on this.

[Chrysanthemum5]

@Cailleach1 the system relies on individuals being honest about previous names. People who identify as transgender put their new name, but are supposed to phone up to talk it through

[OhDear2200]

Just want to say the amount of work the leaders have to do is heavy and I’m very appreciative.

But as my DD goes into adolescence I am appalled at the idea of her space not being protected. I worry that this is seen as ‘Karen’s’ suggesting all trans are sex offenders. This is absolutely not the case. It’s about wanting my daughter to know that it’s ok to say ‘I want privacy from male sexed people’, this is not judgment about them this isn’t even about them, it’s about her and her fellow female peers. This should be her fundamental right. I’m not being made to feel bad about this!

[OhDear2200]

[quote Chrysanthemum5]@Cailleach1 the system relies on individuals being honest about previous names. People who identify as transgender put their new name, but are supposed to phone up to talk it through[/quote]
What could possibly go wrong?

[carolinesbaby]

@ChattyLion

Wait what GGUK doesn’t do camping, fire lighting, all the rest of it, any more?

We do!! Of course we do.

At grass roots level we still do all that stuff. Don't forget that the leaders tend to be the really keen Guides who grew up but never left. We do the stuff we loved as Guides.

[Cailleach1]

Can I just ask if the dbs is reliant on people who have changed their names disclosing this and giving their previous ones via a phone call?

Are people with previous offences only revealed if they themselves choose to disclose this? If this is the case, the dbs is a joke. You may as well have a tick box for people who want to voluntarily declare any past offences.

I always remember with the many sex abuse cases in Ireland that those wishing to abuse children go into roles where they will have access to children. I would have thought there was real vetting going on in organisations like girl guiding. (in order to protect children).

[Chrysanthemum5]

Individuals who are transgender (or identify as such) don't have to have their previous names noted on their certificate. They are supposed to call the sensitive applications team who will review their application.

www.gov.uk/guidance/transgender-applications

[Cailleach1]

Oh my. A big old loophole then. So previous history doesn't have to be disclosed if it is voluntary. Vetting is supposed to be for the protection of the children. No loopholes. We had very special people in Ireland too who had particular access to children in the last century. Hence the avalanche of child abuse cases which came to light.

[Howzaboutye]

The guider that discovered this new policy was kicked out by guiding. And is now being stonewalled by them (awful ironic turn of phrase there).
The more light this policy gets, the better.

And to answer a previous poster- the boy in the guide group will be treated as one of the girls for camping. And you as a parent have no right to officially know he is in the tent with your daughter. Your daughter has no right to only be with female campers.

As guiding is taking self ID to be law- it is not. And they are extending it to children. Which the law does not allow for.

This plus the complete and utter disregard for the safety and comfort of the girls in guiding is frankly appalling.

My daughter definitely will not be sharing a tent with a confused teenage boy. What could possibly go wrong eh?

[Howzaboutye]

And just to be clear the board of girl guiding UK changed the organisation to be single gender, from single sex. Officially. But without consultation. So they absolutely can do this, as it's their rules. It's just unfortunately not rules that 99.99% of women and girls actually in guiding want.

[Howzaboutye]

I think the only way to change it would be all the guiders to un-volunteer. The organisation is nothing without the guiders putting in time and effort for free.

[Beamur]

There isn't going to be widespread resignations over this. Lots of the younger Leaders and volunteers will not see this as a problem in the first place.
Many of those who do will stay anyway as there is a lot of love and loyalty here and for most people, most of the time it will have little material impact.
There will have to be some serious traction behind any of this being changed.
I think while self ID is still being used as the defacto position for many organisations this will not change here either. Plus the prevailing attitude of affirmation for children.

[ChattyLion]

Charities’ legal aims are publicly searchable on the Charity Commission register (this below is in England and Wales)

THE GUIDE ASSOCIATION

Charity number: 306016

‘TO PROMOTE THE EDUCATION OF GIRLS AND YOUNG WOMEN TO HELP THEM DEVELOP EMOTIONALLY, MENTALLY, PHYSICALLY AND SPIRITUALLY SO THAT THEY CAN MAKE A POSITIVE CONTRIBUTION TO THEIR COMMUNITY AND THE WIDER WORLD.’

register-of-charities.charitycommission.gov.uk/charity-search/-/charity-details/306016/governing-document

Charities can’t normally have registered legal aims and then just decide to do something different with their resources?

[ValancyRedfern]

The description is still correct if you believe twaw, as Girl Guiding do.

[MrsFin]

@SSwimCycle21

I’ve got two DDs, forgive my ignorance but does this mean anyone can ‘identify’ as a female and attend girl guide / brownie camps, sleep in same tents as girls, lead a female unit but be biological male? How is safeguarding upheld?!?
My eldest DD is also active in competitive sport and already I’m SO so angry at what is happening in female sport being eroded by male rights over females when will it end

Yes, which is why I resigned from Guiding 18 months ago.
You're not even allowed to call out on a risk assessment that there is a person with a penis sharing washing and sleeping accommodation with the girls, or even helping the little ones go to toe toilet/get dressed on occasion.

Though if that person with a penis identifies as a man, then you do have to list it as a risk, organises separate sleeping space etc.
If the "penis haver" wears a skirt, it's all ok.

[Binglebong]

You don't think that girls from races or religions where they cannot do things with males there feel excluded do you? Or if they have a disability where they need personal help but want it only from another female?

Gosh, how unexpected.

[carolinesbaby]

This whole debacle feels like a kick in the teeth for women like me who have poured hours and weeks and months into running excellent, varied and exciting units for the girls and young women who join them. It reads as GGUK standing up and telling the world we are rubbish. I have run my unit for nearly 21 years and I won't leave now, but I will say that I would have to think very carefully about whether I could carry on if I was put in the position of having to pretend that the new leader Pippa wasn't actually Phillip, or if I was asked by a parent about this issue directly. If a transgirl joined my unit and a parent came to me and says, Flossie won't be going on camp unless you can assure me that her safeguarding needs are met, she cannot share sleeping and washing facilities with males (for whatever reason), I won't be lying to them and saying that all the young people are female.

[ChattyLion]

Absolutely, Girl Guiding are definitely believers in self ID Valancy. But don’t they have the law wrong? The category of ‘girls’ doesn't also include boys. There’s no GRC to change legal sex for kids- as much as some organisations have been lobbying for that. So no legal obligation on any female sex organisation to include boys.

I’m not a lawyer but surely legally registered charitable organisations can’t just decide that boys are girls and still keep the same legal aims. It raises serious governance questions to fundraise for one clearly stated thing and then use the money for something else, doesn’t it?

And it’s all been so poorly handled, leaving the volunteers and kids (female and male) in a really difficult position. If organisations want to make their single sex organisations into mixed sex- why do it so quietly?
Why not formally make the legal change and also change the charity’s name to ‘Feminine-Stereotyped Guiding’ if it’s no longer for girls?
Or ‘Self-identified Girls Guiding’? Or to be factual and crystal clear, ‘Girls and Boys Guiding’? Or just ‘Children’s Guiding’? Then the girls and parents and volunteers can clearly see what new policies mean for them and make their own choices about it.

It’s hard to imagine why Trustees of the Charity did not write to all of the members and volunteers, parents and older girls, offering an open web chat, members conference or whatever, at a very early proposal stage for this change.They could have openly set out all the reasons why the Trustees wanted this change of policy and then debated it, then adopted, adapted or rejected the proposed new policy.

[AppleKatie]

This whole debacle feels like a kick in the teeth for women like me who have poured hours and weeks and months into running excellent, varied and exciting units for the girls and young women who join them. It reads as GGUK standing up and telling the world we are rubbish. I have run my unit for nearly 21 years and I won't leave now, but I will say that I would have to think very carefully about whether I could carry on if I was put in the position of having to pretend that the new leader Pippa wasn't actually Phillip, or if I was asked by a parent about this issue directly. If a transgirl joined my unit and a parent came to me and says, Flossie won't be going on camp unless you can assure me that her safeguarding needs are met, she cannot share sleeping and washing facilities with males (for whatever reason), I won't be lying to them and saying that all the young people are female.

This with bells on.

I love it all and am committed to my girls and team to the extent that I can’t bring myself to walk away over the theoretical. But when/if it gets real that will be the end- and with me I’m certain would be at least 2/3rds of the women in my district.

So what or rather more interestingly who is left?

[BluePheasant]

DD is currently in Brownies, and I have no concerns with her unit atm. But, going forward I am worried about whether Guides will be the same female only environment it used to be. It's not even just about safe guarding for me, although this is a major concern with all the TWAW retoric. It's about girls being able to have a place, a club, a movement that's just for them. Where they don't have to worry about boys watching them and judging them, being faster, stronger, louder than them. It's looking like a slippery slope to end of those decades of sisterhood that Guiding was based on and gave so many girls the chance to shine

[Binglebong]

I assume the Charity Commision was asked to look into this change of purpose?

[ethelredonagoodday]

I noted earlier this evening that they've posted a statement on their Facebook page related to this...

"We've had some comments and queries about our trans inclusive Equality & Diversity policy we’d like to respond to.

We have a trans inclusive Equality & Diversity policy, which is grounded in the Equality Act 2010. This policy has not changed with the publication of our Diversity and Inclusion Strategic Plan. Simply being transgender does not make someone more of a safeguarding risk than any other person. We proudly remain trans inclusive."