Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Allsorts school assemblies

42 replies

Eyod · 26/02/2019 10:52

Hi all, I have name changed for this but I am a regular poster/FWR lurker and I'm looking for some thoughts.

I received an email from the school this morning advising us that there will be a series of "extraordinary assemblies" happening soon. There is a child within the school who is exploring their gender identity and they want to ensure that everyone is treated with respect and love.

While this is great and I don't disagree with the ethos, I am nervous. I would like to ask the school some questions and am not sure what to ask without coming across as judgmental or transphobic. I was thinking along the lines of:

How will you help the children explore and discuss this without resorting to damaging gender stereotypes?
How will you reconcile the differences between gender and biological sex?
How will you deal with situations such as toilets and changing areas?

Any other good questions I can ask?

I have a child who is very GNC, has her hair cut very short, wears lynx, only wears boys clothes, is undergoing an autism assessment and I suspect possibly gay. All of this I am absolutely ok with but she would probably jump at the chance to feel special and accepted and I fundamentally don't think she has any kind of real gender dysphoria. Up until the past year or so she was a very stereotypically girly girl.

This is a Brighton school and I seem to recall reading that Allsorts aren’t exactly balanced. I’d really like to know what is going to be included so I can discuss this with DD.

Thanks.

OP posts:
NeurotrashWarrior · 26/02/2019 11:10

Ugh.

Have a look what trans gender trend say on all sorts, perhaps get in contact with them too.

VickyEadie · 26/02/2019 11:15

One child exploring their identity and the school is doing a series of assemblies, with parents notified about this child's existence - that's calling attention on one child, I'd say and definitely a bad move.

If I were the head, I'd be looking to approach this in ways which would not get parents and children immediately wondering who it was.

OldCrone · 26/02/2019 11:19

One child exploring their identity and the school is doing a series of assemblies, with parents notified about this child's existence - that's calling attention on one child, I'd say and definitely a bad move.

Is there any other situation where they might do a series of assemblies based around a child in the school who is in some way 'different'?

nauticant · 26/02/2019 11:20

Some basic points.

What about conflicts of rights? How are they to be resolved?

What does the law say about single sex spaces in schools?

The child exploring their gender identity should be protected. Equally, the dignity of other children in the school needs to be protected.

Eyod · 26/02/2019 11:43

Thanks. I have had a look at Trans Gender Trend and the Allsorts toolkit.

At first glance one of the things I noticed was this regarding trans kids and changing rooms: "This approach is underpinned by the Equality Act 2010, whereby refusing a child or young person access to the changing room of their true gender identity would constitute an act of discrimination"

That's totally untrue isn't it?

OP posts:
jeaux90 · 26/02/2019 12:02

I believe it's untrue because gender reassignment is the protected characteristic not gender identity.

AncientLights · 26/02/2019 12:07

If I recall correctly, Transgender Trend advocates NOT making a special case of trans school kids. So no special allowances made in the dress code, no time off school for appointments etc. It sounds like your school are starting from the opposite position.

LangCleg · 26/02/2019 12:09

Separate toilet and washing facilities must be provided for boys and girls aged 8 years and - Regulation 4 of the School Premises (England) Regulations 2012. This falls within
the exemption provided for in Schedule 22 of the EqA 2010.

Link:

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/719398/Gender-separation-guidance.pdf

MindTheMinotaur · 26/02/2019 12:12

I would ask them how they are guarding against social contagion in light of work on ROGD and our current lack of understanding of this.

OldCrone · 26/02/2019 12:25

"This approach is underpinned by the Equality Act 2010, whereby refusing a child or young person access to the changing room of their true gender identity would constitute an act of discrimination"

This is the opposite of what the EA2010 says. There are exemptions which mean that separate male and female services can be provided. Gender identity has no status in law.

WorkingItOutAsIGo · 26/02/2019 12:27

I would ask if this was your child being referred to? As schools believe they have no need to tell parents.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 26/02/2019 12:27

Is it primary or secondary OP?

CharlieParley · 26/02/2019 12:27

Yes, Eyod it's a deliberate misrepresentation of the EqA. And proceeding that way would breach the rights of the other children under the EqA and the UNCRC.

A girls right to privacy is not superseded by the right to privacy of a child who identifies as trans.

The documentation accompanying the EqA spells this exact scenario out, and it's unsurprisingly the opposite position to that claimed by LGBT orgs.

A girl's right to privacy:

Is based on the protected characteristic of sex.

She is entitled to single-sex spaces and therefore to a changing room free from males, however they identify.

A trans-identifying child's right to privacy:

Is based on the protected characteristics of sex and gender reassignment.

Sex: such a child must not be excluded from changing with the other children of its sex, unless they want to be. These are all children sharing the same legal sex and therefore have a right to be in the space that corresponds with their sex.

Gender reassignment:

So while trans-identifying children cannot be excluded from their own spaces (because that would treat two children sharing the same sex differently, in breach of their rights under the EqA), their right to privacy under the protected characteristic of gender reassignment means they cannot be forced to change with children whose sex they share.

There is no declaration in the accompanying explanations to the EqA that trans-identifying children must not be excluded from the single-sex spaces of opposite-sex children.

On the contrary, because we have the existing right of girls and boys to privacy via single-sex spaces (which are not of course superseded by the right to privacy of trans-identifying children), the EqA explanations actually illustrate this exact scenario and state that the latter group's right to privacy means they are to be offered alternate arrangements, such as a staff waiting room.

The rights of both groups of children to privacy are thus balanced and do not infringe on each other at all. That's the law.

Unlike what is presented in all the trans guidelines...

And if you look at the Children's Rights Impact Assessment from Women and Girls in Scotland, you'll see that giving trans-identifying children access to the changing room of opposite-sex children also breaches the human rights of those children under the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child.

Although that assessment is specifically addressing the Scottish version of trans guidelines for schools, you will find a lot of good points you can use when talking to your own school. That impact assessment has prompted the Scottish Children's Commissioner to finally question whether these guidelines are fit for purpose and they've asked the Scottish Government to stop using them until they've been properly assessed. Furthermore, the Scottish Equalities and Human Rights Commission have taken note of them too and have now passed them onto the UK EHRC for their consideration.

So that's quite a few of our public bodies tasked with upholding the rights of children and/or the law in general who have very recently acknowledged that these trans guidelines are a concern. It's quite unlikely that your head will be aware of the fact that the criticism of these trans guidelines have now publicly been accepted as valid.

NoSquirrels · 26/02/2019 12:32

Argh. I would be extremely nervous of this in your position, OP, I have to say, if your DD might be susceptible to being affected.

I think I would also like to know from the school how this is the correct approach - to make it "extraordinary" rather than just ordinary assemblies directed at the acceptance of difference as a whole, rather than trans in particular. I would want the AllSorts involvement clarified - had they considered any other guidance on this?

NoSquirrels · 26/02/2019 12:35

And I'm afraid I did actually have the same thought as WorkingItOut about it potentially being your DD and you not being told. I almost can't believe that could be true, but I also must admit it came to my mind that it could be after you described your DD.

Eyod · 26/02/2019 12:50

It's secondary.

And yes I had exactly the same thoughts about it being my DD, the identified child is in her year. She takes great delight in the thought of being different if that makes sense. There always has to be something new.

There is no way in hell though that she would change with the boys!

MindTheMinotaur that's a great question, thank you.

CharlieParley that's what I thought but thanks for laying it all out so clearly.

OP posts:
OldCrone · 26/02/2019 12:58

There is no way in hell though that she would change with the boys!

From what I've heard, girls who identify as boys usually (unsurprisingly) still want to change with the girls. Boys who identify as girls also want to change with the girls. Organisations like Allsorts say that the trans child gets to choose (the other children, being less special, don't have a say).

NutsToThat · 26/02/2019 13:09

It's my understanding that Allsorts guidance has been taken on by many councils, who provide these packs to schools. What's not clear is where the buck stops when that guidance is bad. I suspect many councils take a similar stance to the one in the attached thread. Worth a read before speaking to the school. Best of luck

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3514187-Calling-Oxfordshire-women-I-have-shit-show-of-a-response-from-OCC-and-need-some-parent-power-to-challenge

OldCrone · 26/02/2019 13:13

It's my understanding that Allsorts guidance has been taken on by many councils, who provide these packs to schools. What's not clear is where the buck stops when that guidance is bad.

It's up to the school or the LEA to do equality impact assessments when putting this sort of guidance into practice. If there is a problem with it, this is where the responsibility lies.

CharlieParley · 26/02/2019 13:15

And if this is your child, I would raise merry hell that the school is withholding vital safeguarding information from you.

  1. they have interfered with your parental rights in fulfilling your responsibility to look out for what is in the best interests of your child (and without a protection order, its you who has the right and duty to do that, not the school). It's hardly ever in the best interests of children to be thus singled out at school but at a bare minimum they should discuss this with the parents beforehand. My kids would never have forgiven me for agreeing to that and the ensuing bullying would have been horrific. The teachers always think they've got a handle on it, but after our experience over the last 15 years, I have now had to accept that they don't.

  2. they have not upheld the right of the child to have her best interests being the utmost consideration. And it is never in the best interests of a child to withhold information from the parents where there are no safeguarding concerns in relation to those parents.

  3. given that online purchase of puberty blockers and cross sex hormones is apparently rampant among children who identify as trans, it's the height of irresponsibility not to inform the parents so they can be aware of that and prevent harm from coming to their kids.

  4. by withholding that information the school has potentially delayed your child getting timely access to medical support (therapy being the best practice first step in approaching the issue, especially in a child being assessed for autism).

Eyod · 26/02/2019 13:25

Thanks Nuts, that was an interesting and relevant read. I hadn't spotted that thread.

My thoughts exactly Charlie but if she denies it, how do I find out?

I am going to request a meeting with the school regardless to talk through some of my concerns.

OP posts:
feministfairy · 26/02/2019 13:33

Eyod
It would be incredibly serious if this is your child and you have not been consulted. I would find it hard to believe - except I know of several families where this has been the case and a school has 'transitioned ' a child without parents knowing.

If it is, then you need to go in prepared. Make it very clear that the school does not have your consent to do this. That they cannot remove your parental rights in this way and if this is your child then you need to forbid them to continue. I would hope that no school would be foolish enough to do this - but I also know that these awful guidelines do suggest that it's fine for schools to do this. Have sent you a PM.

CharlieParley · 26/02/2019 13:56

I would definitely email when you raise the issue. That way, if it is your daughter and she denies it, she either has to think about this again or you can cause trouble if she goes ahead. They have to respond in writing btw and you can demand that they do. You can even say that you want it in writing for your records. Hopefully that'll get them to think twice of going against your wishes on this.

You could even just give her a hypothetical heads up saying if this was your child, you do not give permission to the school for singling your daughter out in any way, especially in light of both her being assessed for autism and potentially being gay.

Homophobia is still evident at my kids' schools and many others I know of, and gender ideology seems to be inherently homophobic, too. So when we have whole high schools where not a single lesbian has come out for quite some time, but lots of GNC girls suddenly identify as non-binary or trans, I'd probably also ask just how hostile is the atmosphere to gay kids at your school Ms Headteacher that they're all suddenly trans.

Complete with the data. On average, 3 - 5% of females are lesbian, but only 3 in 100,000 girls are transsexual, so the rest are identifying out of something that they find painful or distressing or problematic or unattainable.

And I'd ask whether the school is now engaging in state-enforced sex stereotyping in their teaching of gender identity (most of them are, it's hard not to revert to stereotyping when it comes to this stuff). And point out how that creates a hostile environment for GNC kids who like millions of adolescent kids before them are struggling to figure out where they fit into this world. This is obviously particularly difficult for girls who are often so much more ashamed of their bodies and bodily functions and struggle with what is expected of women in our society.

And as the numbers show it's even more difficult for kids on the autistic spectrum. So, is the head propagating a narrative that doesn't accept GNC kids just as they are, but suggests they could somehow be defective which can be fixed?

But then again, I'm well known at my kids' schools by now for being outspoken and determined to address issues. This may not be right for you and your child.

CharlieParley · 26/02/2019 13:58

FYI, the CRIA by Women and Girls in Scotland discusses this issue in terms of parental rights, too.

Eyod · 26/02/2019 14:57

Thank you all for your help, I will let you know how my chat with DD goes.

OP posts: