GRA Reform, Legal Self Declaration, has no effect on access to spaces

[ool0n]

I'm wondering given the recent convincing defeat of gender critical ideology in the high court vs EHRC - if the Mumsnet gender critical people finally accept the fact that having a GRC has no effect on access to spaces?

People on the other side of the debate like myself have been explaining to GC people on Twitter for years that having a GRC has no effect on access to spaces so their objection to GRA reform is/was unfounded. I/we based this on -

1. English government legal analysis that stated having a GRC has no effect on access to spaces
2. Scottish government legal analysis ... ditto ...
3. The EA 2010 and GA 2004 text
4. The practical impossibility that a BC (Not an ID document) could be of any use in deciding access

now we have

1. Gender critical crowdfunded challenge to EHRC guidance that says having a GRC has no effect on access to spaces. Comprehensively lost, not even passed the very low bar to even be considered for a Judicial Review.

Given this is the case will gender critical people be reevaluating their assertion "Self ID", as in GRA Reform, must be opposed as it effects access to spaces? Trans people have always been able to "Self ID", in the colloquial sense, into men's and women's spaces. So making it easier for trans people to change their birth certificates only helps them, has no effect on GC feminists, and/or cisgender women and spaces.

(I also wonder if there'll be any introspection as to why an obviously incorrect interpretation of the law was able to become so prevalent in gender critical circles. Maybe listen to groups outside of GC circles a bit more?)

I don't understand why people don't get this? And it distresses me enormousness that no one seems to care.

We get it smellycats. And we do care 💐

We won't ever stop.

You spell it, I'll knit it.

While R0 tootles on her horn.

I care, smellycats

Smellycats I care

@smellycats

If this was real life, your room would look like a florist's.

I care, for myself & all other women.

Because I'm claiming that people can change their external physiological sex

Sure you can reconfigure a few bits, but that accounts for less that 1% of the body.

While R0 tootles on her horn

Cornet please.
(I find the horns ubiquitous.)

making it 'hateful' for a woman to respond to her fear by reacting to a male presence.

It's the ultimate irony, isn't it. Men make women fear them, and then complain when women take steps to avoid it.

@smellycats

I'm confused why gender critical people would both criticise trans women for conforming to stereotypical views of what it means to be a woman. And criticise specific women like Alex Drummond, and Danielle early on in transition, who don't.

I can only answer this from my perspective. I have experienced male violence, and men really scare me. It's a fact that violence and harassment are commonplace and a natal woman was murdered every three days (equivalent to) through 2020.

I can't tell which men are predators because they come from all walks of life.

But if a person who looks like a man walks into a women's toilet, I would leave fast. I'm not going to give him the benefit of the doubt by dropping my knickers behind a flimsy door. I would immediately assume he had ulterior motives by being there, because he shouldn't be. It's a useful clue to intent.

I don't doubt hardcore male predators wouldn't try to pass as a woman to gain access to these spaces and, in fact, a friend of mine had that happen to her. However, if we say that people who look like men, but identify as women are ALLOWED to walk into loos (for example), it makes life very difficult and damn scary. It becomes EASY to hurt women.

I am not saying that "transgender people hurt woman" (although there are actually transgender people in jail for sex crimes against women and children, so that does happen).

But sex predators are sex predators, and ignoring male physical characteristics just makes it a LOT easier for them to be predators if women are accused of being transphobic when a man who looks like a man walk into safe places.

Without some kind of boundary, it creates a loophole for awful men to either hurt women, or just troll them for shits and giggles by piggybacking their abuse on the safety net afforded them by making it 'hateful' for a woman to respond to her fear by reacting to a male presence.

I don't understand why people don't get this? And it distresses me enormousness that no one seems to care.

A lot of us get it, and the number grows every day as awareness increases and the dangerous demands of transgender ideology become more public. You're not alone in your dismay, the tide is turning 💪

[quote spoonrider]@smellycats "But if a person who looks like a man walks into a women's toilet, I would leave fast."

You don't think I wouldn't run either?

You really do seem to think that trans = men just saying they're women and walking into toilets.[/quote]
Smellycats I care, too

There, I fixed it.

@persistentwoman

Telling isn't it that the Keira Bell judgment demonstrating the unethical use of experimental medicine on children too young to consent hasn't stopped trans activists continuing with their campaigns demanding that they must be used on young children despite the emerging evidence of harm . Yet one legal setback for women and it's already being demanded that women publicly recant.

The hypocrisy is off the scale.

I am GC but do you have a good source that collates all of the medical evidence? I've seen things about bone density and libido etc, but I could do with a solid source to refer to.

@Smellycats 💐

@spoonrider

Incorrect.

You can only change the appearance of your external physiological sex.
A neovagina is not a vagina.

Wow, you haven't hung around many tough women have you?

🙄🙄 If I were to respond in kind with unfounded speculations about YOU and the possible origins of your fancies about “tough women” beating up men... well, I won’t. But I will say you obviously don’t get your ideas from hanging out with any women, tough or otherwise.

And please consider the fact that I “hang out” here, on a board full of mothers. There are many ways to be tough.

Anyway, this is all getting rather too close to Being A Good Trans and the normal narrative of a trans woman hoping the GCs will like her

Do you think it’s conceding something to show empathy with women, spoonrider? Giving away something you don’t want to give?

That’s a bit of a sad way to see the world, honestly. I think we’re back to my earlier question of whether it’s more constructive to gloat, or empathise.

I am GC but do you have a good source that collates all of the medical evidence? I've seen things about bone density and libido etc, but I could do with a solid source to refer to

babbaloushka
SEGM
(Society for evidence based gender medicine)

Our aim is to promote safe, compassionate, ethical and evidence-informed healthcare for children, adolescents, and young adults with gender dysphoria.

segm.org/

babbaloushka

This is a good start. Especially as it's only a couple of days old.

www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/society/2021/may/02/tavistock-trust-whistleblower-david-bell-transgender-children-gids

Also this. Sweden have done a 180 in terms of how they approach the issue of 'trans' children on puberty blockers.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4236343-The-main-clinic-in-Sweden-stopping-puberty-blockers-for-under-16-yr-olds

You really do seem to think that trans = men just saying they're women and walking into toilets.

You're wrong. I don't think that. And that's the kind of comment that seems to deliberately ignore the thorny issue. And that's what I find distressing.

But you seem to me to be ignoring the issue of 'sex predators': how prevalent they are, and how often women get hurt, and how little is done to make the world a safer space for women.

Not all sex predators are men, but by far the vast majority look like men and ARE men.

It's crap for men who don't hurt women. But my husband, for example, doesn't object to being excluded from female spaces even though he would be totally harmless in that space, because he understands the necessity for women.

It's also crap for transgender people who identify as woman but want to retain all the trappings of being male. But unlike my husband, many of these people (not all) DO object to being excluded despite it having the potential to increase risk to women.

I think this is my favourite so far:

"Meanwhile you're claiming that, what, there's something so intrinsically sexed about people that no amount of physical change will erase it."

I think I am happy to claim that one, yes. It is not possible to change sex.

(awaits clownfish).

I sometimes wonder what will happen when truly transphobic people cotton on to the reality of self id. Like, big bigoted blokes, people who think anything non straight is pervy and deviant. Not the bespectacled lefty feminists like me who keep trying to tackle the problems with reason or humour or legal argument or logic or appeals to empathy for women and girls. But when it really starts to hit home to people who really hate anything outside the mainstream. For one thing, there will be no safe spaces left for transgender people because they will all be open to anyone.

babbaloushka

This thread highlights the most recent emerging scandal about the impact of puberty blockers on bone density and the deliberate lack of research - presumably in order to hide the results.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4235821-Puberty-blockers-effects-on-bone-density

If you look at Transgender Trend's website they have numerous scientific articles about the abysmal lack of research into the long term impacts of these drugs on children:

www.transgendertrend.com/puberty-blockers/