Trans lesbian?

[Timeforatincture]

My first ever post on this board. Long time reader, and have found it highly educational. Thank you everyone.

There is a pullout in today's Guardian about influential lesbians. Cameos and longer pieces. One of the longer pieces is an interview with a "trans lesbian."

AIBUin thinking that's a bit odd?

Everyone has got the right to ask out anyone they like, nobody has any right to an acceptance.

Sure but if a straight person knows that the person they are asking is gay, I personally think that is very rude of the straight person. Transwomen know lesbians are not attracted to males, therefore even asking is really rude and aggressive.

@GrownUpBeans

Thanks Shedbuilder. I phrased it badly. Being a lesbian should obviously be a protected characteristic. I was thinking along the lines that if you update the legislation to make it clear that gender identity may, or may not, be a component of attraction, it helps lesbians by making clear that their position is protected, as is the position of those who are same-gender attracted, and that the two are different things.

I really can't agree with you, Beans. LGB attraction is simple and straightforward and demonstrable. No one has ever come up with a definition of 'gender' that can bear scrutiny for more than a few seconds. You don't base legislation on something indefinable.

I also spotted this from another poster:

And yet there are lesbians who are quite happily dating trans lesbians. Because some individuals happen to be attracted to other individuals. Who knew? They're perfectly happy, they don't have a problem, and are fully aware that their choices don't say anything about other people's dating preferences

Nope. Back we go to square one again. Transwomen are men. Trans lesbians are men who say they are lesbians and are attracted to women. They are straight men. A woman who says she's a lesbian (a woman who is exclusively sexually attracted to women) ceases to have any claim to be a lesbian once she starts a relationship with a transwoman. They're in a straight male-female relationship.

They're welcome to be attracted to whoever they want, no issue with that, but the word 'lesbian' is already taken by female-bodied people who are exclusively attracted to other female-bodied women. Those words belong to lesbian and gay people and you can't steal them. Trying to steal them makes you look homophobic and misogynistic.

I see gender identity as similar to faith. I don't have either but I accept others do.

Some people say they are attracted by gender not sex, others that they are attracted by sex. I think all kinds of attraction should be protected. If some-one wants to start a group for lesbians they should be allowed to. If some-one wants to start a group for those attracted to the same gender they should be allowed to.

I don't think detracts from lesbians rights at all? I certainly don't intend it to.

Well I am genuinely surprised and saddened if that is a common experience for straight women. Everyone has got the right to ask out anyone they like, nobody has any right to an acceptance.

There is no if. Its a fact. Bars and pubs have started putting in place support systems for women, on dates who are afraid for their safety or want to end a date or are just out with their friends and want to get away from a man who won't take the hint and go away. The general advice is don't tell a man face to face you don't want to date him. Because it puts you in danger.

When I was a teen in the 90s, the advice, for a short time, it was tell them You are a lesbian, which is not only harmfull and disrespectful to lesbians but, also, didn't work. Then they started with the 'can I join in?' Or 'that's cool as long as I can watch'.

Men and boys are often taught, that if a woman turns you down you should keep trying. She will eventually say yes. Women are told if man keeps trying with you, you should at least give it a go, of they want to date you so bad.

Women have always expected to be grateful for any male attention. I am shocked and saddened you didn't know this. But also jealous, you and no one you know has ever had this situation.

Given the above, it's not entirely surprising that lesbians, especially young ones have people trying to condition them into dating a biological male or be ostracised from the community.

There are several people on this thread telling you that their young lesbian daughters are experiencing it. Its not enough to say "it's not my experience so it's not common or doesn't happen".

@334bu

*Everyone has got the right to ask out anyone they like, nobody has any right to an acceptance.*

Sure but if a straight person knows that the person they are asking is gay, I personally think that is very rude of the straight person. Transwomen know lesbians are not attracted to males, therefore even asking is really rude and aggressive.

I don't agree. People just aren't that simple. For example, there are quite a few women who have identified as straight all their lives and then find themselves attracted to a gay woman out of the blue, and that attraction comes across in interactions between them despite the 'straight' woman having never verbalised an alternative sense of identity.

If that gay woman was to ask them out should they be considered rude and aggressive? Sure, if they'd got the wrong end of the stick and were belligerent about being knocked back of course. But it also might be the beginning of a relationship. The rudeness is in the style of interaction, not the categorisation of people.

We can't expect people to act like they're discrete categories; that's not real life.

I'm not in the habit of correcting other people's self identifications, so, I think you'll find, no I do not.

Really! You would accept anyone's self identification? So you think Rachel Dolezal is really a woman of colour?

Here is a very good (and very saddening) piece on how this pretence that opposite sex attracted males can be lesbians is directly harming actual lesbians. Lesbians are being discriminated against and excluded from lesbian dating apps, and also from the wider “LGBTQ+” “community”, if they aren’t willing to see these “male lesbians” as potential partners.

lesbianandgaynews.com/2021/02/lesbian-women-talk-about-meeting-transbians-on-women-only-dating-sites/

As others have said, the complete erasure of genuinely lesbian only spaces is a harm in itself. In a male dominated society, where the male gaze is so prevalent, pernicious and intrusive, all women and especially lesbians should be entitled to public spaces where they are free from that male gaze, where they can set their own agenda without having to cater to the wishes of those whose male biology and male privilege make them unwelcome there.

Transwomen are men. Trans lesbians are men who say they are lesbians and are attracted to women. They are straight men. A woman who says she's a lesbian (a woman who is exclusively sexually attracted to women) ceases to have any claim to be a lesbian once she starts a relationship with a transwoman. They're in a straight male-female relationship.

Hear, hear.

We can't expect people to act like they're discrete categories; that's not real life.

Ok some people who think they are straight/gay/lesbian might discover at a later date that they are in fact bi but the difference here is that they don't pretend to be homosexual if they are attracted to someone of the opposite sex. The word lesbian has a very particular meaning . It refers to a female person exclusively attracted to other female people. Transwomen cannot be lesbians because they are male and appropriating the name of an another marginalised group is in this case both homophobic and misogynistic.

Trevsadick I’m really sorry to hear of your DD’s experience. The exclusion of actual lesbians from the so-called LGBTQ+ community is utterly shameful, and it makes a mockery of their claim to be “inclusive” and to represent all those different groups of people equally.

It is clear that lesbians’ interests cannot be represented by a “community” that prioritises gender identity ahead of sex, and in fact the same apples to the interests of gay men who are similarly clear about being exclusively same sex attracted, although obviously as men they are under far less pressure.

It’s scandalous that there is no longer a specific term that clearly means “exclusively same sex attracted woman”. Or rather there is, but it’s been hijacked to mean something very different..

I hope your DD can find support and community among other lesbians, Trevsadick - I am wondering if the LGB Alliance will be able to start running social/community events along exclusively same-sex lines in the light of their officially recognised charitable status and the Maya Forstater ruling. That would be tremendous to see.

@334bu

*We can't expect people to act like they're discrete categories; that's not real life.*

Ok some people who think they are straight/gay/lesbian might discover at a later date that they are in fact bi but the difference here is that they don't pretend to be homosexual if they are attracted to someone of the opposite sex. The word lesbian has a very particular meaning . It refers to a female person exclusively attracted to other female people. Transwomen cannot be lesbians because they are male and appropriating the name of an another marginalised group is in this case both homophobic and misogynistic.

Agreed.

And yet there are lesbians who are quite happily dating trans lesbians. Because some individuals happen to be attracted to other individuals.

My understanding, which maybe be wrong, is that if you are attracted to people based on the individual and are happy to date people of any sexuality, sex, or gender that was Pan sexual, not lesbian.

I get the whole 'people can identify as they are want', not sure I agree. But words have meanings. And under the current definitions lesbian would be incorrect.

Its more concerning because self ID of sexuality, is erasing lesbians. If the definition of lesbian, changes to same gender attraction. You are essentially, telling lesbians who are same sex attracted, they are no longer lesbians. What label are you going to 'allow' them to use?

When I mean you, I mean the people who would make these decisions. Not a specific 'you'.

@talkingtolangcleginthedark thank you. I will suggest that. She did mention lgb alliance, before but given some of the backlash aimed at them, she worried it would make college more difficult if anyone found out she was in some way aligned to them.

Its is very sad. But we will get her through it. And as someone said, earlier, I can slowly see the tide changing. i hope it does.

I want transwomen to be able to exist how they want, in peace without fear of harm. Just like I want women to be able to.

But I don't want to see other marginalised groups erased and abused to accommodate their every wish.

And this, OP, is why I never ever buy the Guardian. The Times has a better grip on biological reality (most of the time) or at least covers the issues of self-id on women's rights.

I can't remember the link now, hopefully someone else can, but I read comments I believe on Twitter and possibly Facebook of presumably transmen who were outraged that gay men wouldn't consider them as sexual partners.

These transmen were perfectly confident that they were entitled to have sex with men who are not interested in women. And the subsequent rebuff unleashed a torrent of the worst homophobia.

They have been told that they are genuinely men, and gay men cannot say otherwise.

Women are well used to the pressure to have sex that they don't consent to, but men, not so much.

The disbelief and horrified outrage was palpable. As it should be. And of course, suddenly, they saw what lesbians had been getting at.

Same-sex orientation is protected by law.

The gay and lesbian community have spent decades making sure that their sexual orientation is legitimate and accepted.

And in a couple of short years, a juggernaut of a sexual rights movement like no other, is telling them they're fucking wrong.

And, yes, we all know the reason.

Because of bloody course sexual orientation based on sex. Transwomen who only want to sleep with women?? Transmen who only want to sleep with men?

Sexual orientation is absolutely based on sex. And now people are being forced to deny their sexual orientation, in order to supply validation.

I have nothing but contempt for people who are trying to destroy sex-based rights in the name of their own self service.

Isn't a trans lesbian a heterosexual male?

That is far too logical for this debate.

If they are attracted to women and transwomen they aren't heterosexual. Not a lesbian because not female. New words needed.

GrownUpBeans but they are biological men attracted to women.
So... straight men seems accurate?

Woops typo, *means non men

Heterosexual fits the bill @GrownUpBeans

@AnyOldPrion I'm not talking about women, in the conversation of Gender attraction involving lesbians, when I say non-men I mean someone who doesn't identify as a man OR a woman, eg. Nonbinary, Intersex

@GrownUpBeans

If they are attracted to women and transwomen they aren't heterosexual. Not a lesbian because not female. New words needed.

They are heterosexual. Their gender identity might change, but their sex doesn't. This is why we are in this mess.

I couldn't care less if they find another word, but they cannot appropriate words based on sex and pretend they're based on something else entirely.

And, specifically, the word lesbian is taken.

Lasagna please don't disrespect people with DSD They are not part of this discussion.

[quote LasagnaEater]@AnyOldPrion I'm not talking about women, in the conversation of Gender attraction involving lesbians, when I say non-men I mean someone who doesn't identify as a man OR a woman, eg. Nonbinary, Intersex [/quote]
👏🏼

Oh FFS. People with intersex conditions are either maleor female. They're not non-anything and should be treated with respect.