Trans lesbian?

[Timeforatincture]

My first ever post on this board. Long time reader, and have found it highly educational. Thank you everyone.

There is a pullout in today's Guardian about influential lesbians. Cameos and longer pieces. One of the longer pieces is an interview with a "trans lesbian."

AIBUin thinking that's a bit odd?

Hang on you've lost me again, how the hell is a trans woman, who is attracted women, homophobic???

Why can't people on here just let people live and be who they are?

Because some trans people are not willing to extend this principle to others. Biological sex, gender identity and surgery are all factors that can effect who a person is sexually attracted to. Let each person decide for themselves what works for them.

Same SEX attraction is a protected characteristic under the Equality Act.

Lesbians are women who are attracted to other people of the same sex i.e. women.

@Trevsadick

My dd is 17 and is gay.

The whole trans lesbian thing has changed her views on the trans debate. A few years ago she was 'transwomen are women and should be treated as such in any and all situations and women should protect them at all costs'.

But more and more she has people telling her she should be comfortable dating transwomen, with or without a penis and then call her a terf, homophobic etc because she disagrees. She can now see both sides more clearly. She completely feels trans women should be allowed to live their daily lives free from hate. But also believes that they should have free access to women's spaces and sports.

For dd being a lesibian isn't just about dating people who have a vagina, natural or surgery acquired. Even at her age she notices marked differences in people who grew up and socialised as male, regardless of how they identify now. She isn't attracted to those people.

She is generally fed up of lesbians being forced to the bottom of the lbgtq pile, because it's always done in favour of biological males regardless of their gender or sexuality. She doesn't want to accommodate, biological males into her dating life.

So, yes, my dd feels 'trans lesbians' impact her in a very real and damaging way. Her feelings are as valid as someone who is happy with the term trans lesbian.

No one should be telling her she should date trans women, that's unkind and worrying. That preference should be down to the individual.

However don't label all trans woman as the aggressors, hold the trans women and anyone who supports that scary view you've stated accountable instead.

All the best to your daughter. X

No, I'm holding lesbian boundaries against an ideology that says that male-sexed people can be lesbians and that women who sleep with them are lesbians. Why is this so offensive to you?

@Shedbuilder

No, I'm holding lesbian boundaries against an ideology that says that male-sexed people can be lesbians and that women who sleep with them are lesbians. Why is this so offensive to you?

I agree with you @Shedbuilder.

Transwomen are men. For a TW to 'identify' as a lesbian (which is offensive to me and I'm not a lesbian; I'm a heterosexual adult human female), these TW are heterosexual.

Lesbian is same sex attraction. It's impossible to be a TW lesbian.

However don't label all trans woman as the aggressors, hold the trans women and anyone who supports that scary view you've stated accountable instead.

See this is the issue. Sounds so much like 'not all men'.

No one said its all transwomen. Its not even just transwomen. My dd has been ejected from 2 lbgtq student groups at college, because of this issue. Because other lesbians tell her she should be willing to date transwomen. People who are bi, gay men are running with this line. Because they are all so obsessed with the 'transwomen are women narrative, even if it's hurting biological women'

Its so prevalent in lbgtq spaces she feels unwelcome in what should be safe spaces for her. Because people are putting the desires of trans lesbians above lesbians who don't want to sleep with biological males.

My dd doesn't have a problem with transwomen. She has problem with spaces being not available to her, because she won't be dictated to about her sex life.

I bet many agree with her, but don't want to labelled a terf so keep quiet.

So yes, it's a big problem for her. That problem comes out of the community and this ideology. The ideology is the problem. So yes, trans lesibian ideology, is a problem for my dd. Its also an extension if many problems lesbians face, due to their love lives excluding men. Which seems to be a real problem for a lot of biological men.

Dds current partner is gender neutral, who is biologically female. Her problem isn't with people wanting to identify as a different gender. It's the impact its having on the young lesbian community.

Same SEX attraction is a protected characteristic under the Equality Act.

Lesbians are women who are attracted to other people of the same sex i.e. women.

The Equality Act really needs to be updated. Attraction based on any combination of sex, gender identity and surgery should be protected. There are so many possible combinations, I'm surprised lots of new words haven't appeared as they have with non binary identities. '

Thank you for your kind and polite explanation. I will certainly take this away. I think what I'm uncomfortable with is the some of the comments on the thread are demonising trans women.

My daughter is a young lesbian. I agree regarding the pressure to include male people in the dating pool.

Lesbian dating sites are filled with obvious male people.

She’s at university and they are not allowed to arrange lesbian events without male students who claim they are women being allowed to come. If you are a woman, hopefully you can appreciate how having a male involved changes the dynamic.

There are also lesbian groups where couples have joined. These were heterosexual couples, married as woman and man, then subsequently the man decided to transition. These heterosexual couples then sometimes take over and end up in leadership positions. If those groups are consulted as lesbian groups, for example, by politicians, the previously heterosexual, now “lesbian” couple are not good at understanding how it feels to have grown up as a lesbian, and are unlikely to represent the lesbian position well.

And if you are thinking that perhaps it shouldn’t matter as numbers are so small, it is estimated that there are more men who previously would have been seen as transvestite, but now claim they are women (3% of all males), than there are lesbians (2% of women).

It’s a very tricky situation, as soon as you allow men to claim they are women and in particular, lesbians.

@Trevsadick

My dd is 17 and is gay.

The whole trans lesbian thing has changed her views on the trans debate. A few years ago she was 'transwomen are women and should be treated as such in any and all situations and women should protect them at all costs'.

But more and more she has people telling her she should be comfortable dating transwomen, with or without a penis and then call her a terf, homophobic etc because she disagrees. She can now see both sides more clearly. She completely feels trans women should be allowed to live their daily lives free from hate. But also believes that they should have free access to women's spaces and sports.

For dd being a lesibian isn't just about dating people who have a vagina, natural or surgery acquired. Even at her age she notices marked differences in people who grew up and socialised as male, regardless of how they identify now. She isn't attracted to those people.

She is generally fed up of lesbians being forced to the bottom of the lbgtq pile, because it's always done in favour of biological males regardless of their gender or sexuality. She doesn't want to accommodate, biological males into her dating life.

So, yes, my dd feels 'trans lesbians' impact her in a very real and damaging way. Her feelings are as valid as someone who is happy with the term trans lesbian.

When I think of the kind of experiences that young lesbians are enduring in these 'progressive' times I feel incredibly lucky to have come out in the 80s, when we had our problems (Section 28, Aids etc) but nothing that sought to erase us. I see creepy, predatory men all over lesbian FB sites. I see how they very quickly focus on the younger, less assertive women and particularly those who are vulnerable. It's so sad that your daughter and her peers need to be so vigilant. I can't imagine what it's like forever having to check for biologically-male people seeking validation from lesbians.

I think the tide's turning and I certainly feel far more confident about holding a lesbian-only event and refusing to admit male-sexed people.

Lots of posters here demonstrating how little respect they have for lesbians. The misogyny and homophobia is rife.

@sunavendi

Why is a trans woman that is attracted to women, odd? Why can't people on here just let people live and be who they are? "Sinister" for fuck sake.

Bunch of transphobes.

Is it really necessary to resort to name calling/nasty slur

There's nothing transphobic about facts.

@GrownUpBeans

Same SEX attraction is a protected characteristic under the Equality Act.

Lesbians are women who are attracted to other people of the same sex i.e. women.

The Equality Act really needs to be updated. Attraction based on any combination of sex, gender identity and surgery should be protected. There are so many possible combinations, I'm surprised lots of new words haven't appeared as they have with non binary identities. '

I think we can see now why this thread was revived, can't we?

As ever, no cogent argument, just outrage.

Walk away, MNers. I am.

Shedbuilder in all honesty, my heart breaks for her.

Coming out, in our family wasn't a big deal to us. We never had any expectations for her romantic future. We have always been very open. But for her, even with an incredibly supportive family (including my parents and partner) it's was big deal to her. Starting college, was a big deal to her and she wanted to find people who she felt safe with.

I am straight, I can't know what it's like. But I know life for lesibians can often be very difficult and unsafe, through friends who are lesbians. And to see her hurt and excluded by her own community on top of this because she believes its same sex attraction not same gender attraction, is pretty horrifying.

It beggars belief, that she currently feels more safe with her straight male friends, than people in the lbgtq community. (She also has some lesibian friends who agree and straight female friends, straight males are not her only friends. Before anyone says ots because she doesn't mix with the community enough)

I have always been, what I think is called gender critical. I don't not think transwomen should have access to all women's spaces and i believe that the needs of women are being totally ignored to accommodate a small number of trans people, usually transwomen. I will continue that.

But I have no clue how to help her with this. I just try and support how she wants to deal with it.

She shouldn't have to deal with this on top of everything else.

@GrownUpBeans

Same SEX attraction is a protected characteristic under the Equality Act.

Lesbians are women who are attracted to other people of the same sex i.e. women.

The Equality Act really needs to be updated. Attraction based on any combination of sex, gender identity and surgery should be protected. There are so many possible combinations, I'm surprised lots of new words haven't appeared as they have with non binary identities. '

Perhaps they should be. But the definition of lesbian is absolutely clear and must be respected.

I agree, the word lesbian is taken.

As ever, no cogent argument, just outrage

Think there's a misunderstanding here. I'm supporting lesbians.

I'm a gay women and frequently out on the gay scene in a large British city and never see anyone get worked up about this particular issue like people do on mumsnet.

This is just not our lived reality. Our spaces are inhabited by an incredibly diverse range of people identifying in all manner of ways (yes, including trans lesbians) and what you see are people recognising the complexity and vulnerability of all of those present and being supportive.

I have never heard any expression of expectation that a lesbian should be attracted to a trans lesbian by virtue of the category alone; that would be as ludicrous as saying every straight woman should be attracted to or willing to date every man because they are straight!

And yet there are lesbians who are quite happily dating trans lesbians. Because some individuals happen to be attracted to other individuals. Who knew? They're perfectly happy, they don't have a problem, and are fully aware that their choices don't say anything about other people's dating preferences.

Poor love. Things will get better for her, I promise.

The only thing I can suggest is that she seeks out older women. I'm 60, my partner's only a couple of years younger and we'd probably seem like Methusalah to her but if she were to dip a toe into our lesbian social circle, she might find the support she needs.

I'm off next weekend to meet up with a group of lesbians ranging from early 30s to 70+: I mention this as an indication of the kind of thing that's going on quietly, under the radar, all over the place. Getting involved with a group like that can be a way of (sounds corny) working out who she is, what she wants etc, safely. But when you're her age you don't want to be hanging around with a load of boring old radfem dykes!

@GrownUpBeans

As ever, no cogent argument, just outrage

Think there's a misunderstanding here. I'm supporting lesbians.

Beans, sorry, I was referring to the 'The Equality Act should be changed to fit me' comment.

I have to go and mow the lawn now.

that would be as ludicrous as saying every straight woman should be attracted to or willing to date every man because they are straight!

I don't know here this amazing place is that you live, but you Do realise that plenty of us straight women are expected to date any man that shows interest in us.

That women (straight or gay) are often afriad of turning men advances down?

@shedbuilder thank you. I will suggest that, I have a few older lesbian friends, who did offer to support dd if she needed when she first came out. Now restrictions are lifting, we were planning for them to come to mine. I can arrange it for when dd is here.

And yet there are lesbians who are quite happily dating trans lesbians. Because some individuals happen to be attracted to other individuals.
I think you mean bisexuals as they are dating a member of the opposite sex.

@Trevsadick

that would be as ludicrous as saying every straight woman should be attracted to or willing to date every man because they are straight!

I don't know here this amazing place is that you live, but you Do realise that plenty of us straight women are expected to date any man that shows interest in us.

That women (straight or gay) are often afriad of turning men advances down?

@shedbuilder thank you. I will suggest that, I have a few older lesbian friends, who did offer to support dd if she needed when she first came out. Now restrictions are lifting, we were planning for them to come to mine. I can arrange it for when dd is here.

Well I am genuinely surprised and saddened if that is a common experience for straight women. Everyone has got the right to ask out anyone they like, nobody has any right to an acceptance.

Thanks Shedbuilder. I phrased it badly. Being a lesbian should obviously be a protected characteristic. I was thinking along the lines that if you update the legislation to make it clear that gender identity may, or may not, be a component of attraction, it helps lesbians by making clear that their position is protected, as is the position of those who are same-gender attracted, and that the two are different things.

@334bu

*And yet there are lesbians who are quite happily dating trans lesbians. Because some individuals happen to be attracted to other individuals.* I think you mean bisexuals as they are dating a member of the opposite sex.

I'm not in the habit of correcting other people's self identifications, so, I think you'll find, no I do not.