Trans lesbian?

[Timeforatincture]

My first ever post on this board. Long time reader, and have found it highly educational. Thank you everyone.

There is a pullout in today's Guardian about influential lesbians. Cameos and longer pieces. One of the longer pieces is an interview with a "trans lesbian."

AIBUin thinking that's a bit odd?

Lol 'the erasure of genuinely lesbian only spaces is a harm in itself' - it's not trans issues that have caused that, the spaces that have been attempted for lesbians only have not been economically successful because they're not populated enough by their targeted market. And if they do get some numbers they still don't get the spending. They don't generate enough money to be sustainable.

I suppose there are transwomen holding us back at the doors?!

Thank god that there are a huge range of diversely identifying individuals going to these places - it's what keeps them open so that me and my lesbian friends can enjoy them

@AnyOldPrion

Thank you for your kind and polite explanation. I will certainly take this away. I think what I'm uncomfortable with is the some of the comments on the thread are demonising trans women.

My daughter is a young lesbian. I agree regarding the pressure to include male people in the dating pool.

Lesbian dating sites are filled with obvious male people.

She’s at university and they are not allowed to arrange lesbian events without male students who claim they are women being allowed to come. If you are a woman, hopefully you can appreciate how having a male involved changes the dynamic.

There are also lesbian groups where couples have joined. These were heterosexual couples, married as woman and man, then subsequently the man decided to transition. These heterosexual couples then sometimes take over and end up in leadership positions. If those groups are consulted as lesbian groups, for example, by politicians, the previously heterosexual, now “lesbian” couple are not good at understanding how it feels to have grown up as a lesbian, and are unlikely to represent the lesbian position well.

And if you are thinking that perhaps it shouldn’t matter as numbers are so small, it is estimated that there are more men who previously would have been seen as transvestite, but now claim they are women (3% of all males), than there are lesbians (2% of women).

It’s a very tricky situation, as soon as you allow men to claim they are women and in particular, lesbians.

I don't believe the numbers are small at all.

Maybe this whole debate shows a new term or phrase or name should be coined for trans women who are attracted to women, so their can be no confusion, hurt or upset?

I have two trans male friends and they're both in relationships with women. They don't consider themselves lesbians because they don't consider themselves women any longer. This is why I think I struggle with the logic on this thread as it would suggest they should call themselves lesbians. But I appreciate the struggle that some of you and your loved ones have been through which is why you feel as you do.

@WhiteFeministWarMachine

Oh FFS. People with intersex conditions are either maleor female. They're not non-anything and should be treated with respect.

Well said

Maybe this whole debate shows a new term or phrase or name should be coined for trans women who are attracted to women, so their can be no confusion, hurt or upset?

Yes as said previously- heterosexual men.

The gay and lesbian community have spent decades making sure that their sexual orientation is legitimate and accepted.

And in a couple of short years, a juggernaut of a sexual rights movement like no other, is telling them they're fucking wrong.

Yes, Datun. And it really is the salt in the wound that this sexual rights movement claims to be their movement, their community! Which is in fact doing it’s damndest to erase and marginalise them, from and within what was once their own community. The proverbial cuckoo in the nest, Trojan Horse, whatever image of a manipulative usurper fits. It’s outrageous.

(Which is only matched by the takeover and repurposing of mainstream feminism to not just include but actively centre biologically male people.)

@suggestionsplease1

Lol 'the erasure of genuinely lesbian only spaces is a harm in itself' - it's not trans issues that have caused that, the spaces that have been attempted for lesbians only have not been economically successful because they're not populated enough by their targeted market. And if they do get some numbers they still don't get the spending. They don't generate enough money to be sustainable.

I suppose there are transwomen holding us back at the doors?!

Thank god that there are a huge range of diversely identifying individuals going to these places - it's what keeps them open so that me and my lesbian friends can enjoy them

Oh give it a rest. You're talking to loads of lesbians here. Many of whom easily sustained lesbian only places. How do you think they kept them open for decades?

Take a look at michfest if you want a massive example of male bodied individuals shutting down female spaces.

If a transwoman is attracted to women and also to other transwomen, they are attracted to women and also to men, so they are not heterosexual.

@speakout

Maybe this whole debate shows a new term or phrase or name should be coined for trans women who are attracted to women, so their can be no confusion, hurt or upset?

Yes as said previously- heterosexual men.

That works.

Mrs New. It is unacceptable to imply that people with DSD are not like everybody else, either male or female.

If a transwoman is attracted to women and also to other transwomen, they are attracted to women and also to men, so they are not heterosexual.

So they are bi but still not lesbians because they are male.

@suggestionsplease1 it appears you are only here, not to discuss.

But to keep telling women they are wrong.

We live in a city, near another major city. Not in a small town or village with no diversity. My dd, for example, wouldn't try and start a lesbian support group. Because if she doesn't include transwomen and any men that say they are women (no matter how they present) they will be hounded to close the doors.

Again, just because you are happy with biological males in lesbian spaces, doesn't mean all or the majority are. They don't need transwomen or men to keep the doors open. They need to be left alone and they would be fine. And if they have its no longer a space for lesbians. Because lesbian means same SEX attraction.

Again, you keep talking about your experience as though it's the experience of all women. But your experience isn't similar to most women.

You seem to think women aren't under pressure to engage with men, you believe that young lesbians can't possibly be being pressured to date trans women, now you believe lesbian spaces HAVE to accept men to stay open.

Your experience as a woman and a lesbian is world's away from many women's (straight or gay). You must live a very sheltered life not seeing anyone outside a small group of people. You must not see the news or any media at all. Ot even social media, or again keep it to a very small group of people who think exactly the same.

Or you are just saying whatever you feel the need to, to try and prove everyone else is wrong.

If a transwoman is attracted to women and also to other transwomen, they are attracted to women and also to men, so they are not heterosexual.

It would be interesting to know how many transwomen, who are attracted to biological women have dated a transwoman.

Well said, Trevsadick, in your post at 18.43. Spot on.

No one thinks that lesbian only spaces, dating apps, bars, clubs, etc, are being colonised by male individuals, because they can't be sustained by women! (who, unaccountably, suddenly don't have any money).

It's risible nonsense.

The experience of lesbians being erased is plastered from one end of the Internet to the other.

Hence LGB alliance, get the L out, etc.

Honestly 🙄

It would be interesting to know how many transwomen, who are attracted to biological women have dated a transwoman.

Yes, it would be interesting, wouldn’t it?

@TalkingtoLangClegintheDark

It would be interesting to know how many transwomen, who are attracted to biological women have dated a transwoman.

Yes, it would be interesting, wouldn’t it?

My lesbian mates say that most of the transwomen on their dating apps say 'no trans' in their profile.

@GrownUpBeans

If a transwoman is attracted to women and also to other transwomen, they are attracted to women and also to men, so they are not heterosexual.

In this instance they would be bisexual.

But previously, you were talking about transwomen being attracted to women, in which case they are heterosexual because transwomen are men.

No matter how you phrase it, the biological facts will not change.

Sex matters.

@Trevsadick I am here to discuss. I am very well established and connected in the lesbian and gay communities that I am part of, and have been for many years. The political rhetoric that I see being bounced around on forums is not representative of the world I see in person, first hand. To the extent that it makes me question what is going on in forums at times.

My lesbian mates say that most of the transwomen on their dating apps say 'no trans' in their profile.

So those ones don't consider other transwomen, as women. But actually women have to accept them as women.

It boggles my mind.

I am very well established and connected in the lesbian and gay communities that I am part of, and have been for many years. The political rhetoric that I see being bounced around on forums is not representative of the world I see in person, first hand. To the extent that it makes me question what is going on in forums at times.

But you don't know that women are pressured to date men, because the man wants a date?

Despite this happening to lesbians as well. You don't know that women worry, they are in danger if they turn a man down?

Sorry for the source, but dd just sent me this story as a prime example of what happens when women turn men down. This poor young woman, had to go as far as a retraining order but that didn't help

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9703881/Model-killed-Derbyshire-village-filed-restraining-order-against-stalker-friend-claims.html

And this isn't even the only story, this week where a woman has died, because she says she doesn't want to be with a man.

Despite, the fact that its discussed all the time, you seem to unaware of any issues women face in regards to the male gaze. And no one you have ever known has ever experienced this. If they had you would know it.

You seem to think lesbians don't have their own money, can't sustain their own groups and have to rely on biological females to financially support a safe space.

Young lesbians, are being excluded from lbgtq spaces because they won't date biological men, and you aren't aware of it.

How can you, be so well connected and not aware of any of these issues?

I have two trans male friends and they're both in relationships with women. They don't consider themselves lesbians because they don't consider themselves women any longer. This is why I think I struggle with the logic on this thread as it would suggest they should call themselves lesbians. But I appreciate the struggle that some of you and your loved ones have been through which is why you feel as you do.

But they are lesbians though, it’s a shame they don’t want to identify as such but biological females exclusively same sex attracted are lesbians. 🤷‍♀️

Well @Trevsadick, you're putting a huge amount of words into my mouth there, and I'm not really a fan - it's bit gaslighty isn't it?

I'm not unfamiliar with any of the theoretical issues or indeed how they manifest on occasion; I'm in disagreement about the extent to which they reflect the everyday experiences of the gay and lesbian etc communities.

How can you, be so well connected and not aware of any of these issues?

A very good question.

To be well connected means to be aware. And in this instance, on this thread, because it doesn't fit the narrative to be 'all inclusive', the awareness is on the backburner, or the connections are not there.

I'm a heterosexual woman, I do not socialise much due to autism, being around people is often too overwhelming. But I'm aware, very aware, despite not being connected and it just doesn't ring true that a connected, aware person wouldn't be in the know.

Clarice 99 In my previous post at 17.33 I referred to transwomen who are attracted to transwomen and women. We're in agreement on this.

And agree that those who won't date trans are heterosexual.

Really this constant pushing of the idea that males can be lesbians is actually quite hateful and really should not be tolerated on this board. Take your homphobia elsewhere please.