Trans lesbian?

[Timeforatincture]

My first ever post on this board. Long time reader, and have found it highly educational. Thank you everyone.

There is a pullout in today's Guardian about influential lesbians. Cameos and longer pieces. One of the longer pieces is an interview with a "trans lesbian."

AIBUin thinking that's a bit odd?

^Should the woman who slept with a man when she was young but now only sleeps with women properly define as bisexual, and not use the word lesbian?

Should the woman who has only ever slept with women but is presently feeling confused because she is experiencing some passing attraction for a man, rethink her identity and not use the word lesbian, even if she never acts on it?

Should the woman who feels strongly attracted to women but has never had sex with anyone correctly define herself as a lesbian?^

All those women may or may not be lesbians, biological males however can never ever be lesbians. Simple really.

I think if you are currently open to sleeping with biologically male people as well as female people, you are bisexual.

All those women may or may not be lesbians, biological males however can never ever be lesbians. Simple really.

Yes, transwomen are male, so they can be heterosexual , attracted to women, they can be bi attracted to both sexes, they can be gay, attracted to men , but what they can't be is a lesbian , because transwomen are male and to be a lesbian you must be female.

@TalkingtoLangClegintheDark
And what also stands out is Helen’s continued determination to ignore/deny the reality and validity of exclusively same sex attraction.

I notice you haven’t addressed that point at all, Helen. I would really like to know if you do think everyone is bisexual deep down, just not aware of it? Do you think gay men and lesbian women should just be more open to the idea of having partners of the opposite sex?

I don’t think that people are ‘secretly’ bisexual, or ‘in denial’. However, I would predict that an increasing proportion of the population will be more fluid in their sexuality in future - a number of reports of the last few years have indicated this trend (www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/young-people-more-likely-identify-bisexual-gay-lesbian-office-national-statistics-a7347701.html%3famp , yougov.co.uk/topics/relationships/articles-reports/2019/07/03/one-five-young-people-identify-gay-lesbian-or-bise )

I have no idea why people’s sexualities are as they are, and it’s certainly not for me to tell a person they’re wrong about their own sexuality. If a person tells me they’ve only ever been attracted to and/or had sex with people of the same sex as them, or the opposite sex, I’ll take that at face value.

@suggestionsplease1 completely agree with you, well put

@MrsNewms85 thanks!

However, I would predict that an increasing proportion of the population will be more fluid in their sexuality in future - a number of reports of the last few years have indicated this trend
This I accept will be quite possible.
Transwomen might well move between heterosexuality, gay,bi and pan However, as they are male their sexuality fluidity will never encompass being a lesbian, as only females can be lesbians.

However, I would predict that an increasing proportion of the population will be more fluid in their sexuality in future

Not relevant at all in cases where people are not. Such as straight and homosexual people of both sexes.

@334bu

Bethany Black is a transwoman and to include them in a list of lesbians is homophobic.

This.

@CardinalLolzy
So it's what someone looks like that might dictate whether they experience homophobia or not? Do you draw the same distinction as to whether they are homosexual (or hetero) or not?

As always, it depends! I imagine most verbal or physical attacks against strangers on the streets for homophobic reasons are based on a couple appearing to be both women, or men, not on a detailed biological assessment. And obviously there can be cases where a person is the target of homophobia on the basis that they ‘look gay’. On the other hand, I’m sure there are cases where it’s not just about appearance - eg a religious adoption agency refuses an application by a couple comprising a non-trans woman and a trans man, because the agency regards them as a same sex couple, regardless of how they identify themselves. (Of course, this sort of discrimination is fortunately now illegal anyway).

As to how I determine whether a person is straight or gay - I would generally accept what they say they are (subject to the example I gave previously where they appear to be using a definition that bears no resemblance to the communal understanding of the terms). I don’t know who they’ve been attracted to throughout their entire life to date, or who they feel they might be attracted to in the future (nor how they themselves would define the terms ‘straight’ and ‘gay’) - and ultimately I have no need to know anything beyond what they say.

I’ve had plenty of passionate encounters with ‘straight’ girls in clubs and at parties - I have no idea if they were genuinely attracted to me, or just doing it for male attention, or as an experiment. I don’t think those encounters give anyone the right to tell them they’re not straight, assuming that’s how they identify.

[quote Helen8220]@suggestionsplease1 completely agree with you, well put[/quote]
Thanks Helen, I think I am largely in alignment with your thinking. (Although you may disagree with me on the next bit!)

Some posters might be surprised but I do understand some of the concerns being raised - I too have concerns about people who have experienced male puberty participating in women's sports for eg. and I appreciate the concerns about male bodied people in women's prisons, legalising self ID etc.

I understand that the logic seems concerning.

But what I really think is that the vast, vast majority of people who are going through processes of exploring alternative identities, and what seems to fit best for them, are doing this from a position of good faith. They are, like the rest of us, trying to find the right way forward for them, not harm other people.

I don't personally believe that there will be a material problem with people acting in bad faith - for example, pretending to ID as a sex that, deep down, they feel that they are not, in order to secure some advantage, or harm others.

Just because the logic makes things possible does not mean that they will occur.

(And yes, I am well aware of the individual examples everyone can cite already; I don't doubt they exist.) But, in the overall scheme of things, to me there is more harm occurring from the alienation of trans people (lesbian or otherwise) than from their acceptance in the spaces they hope to fit.

I don't personally believe that there will be a material problem with people acting in bad faith - for example, pretending to ID as a sex that, deep down, they feel that they are not, in order to secure some advantage, or harm others.

Already happening.

@NiceGerbil
I find this answer unsatisfactory.

You can't know anyone's gender unless you ask. Or they tell you.

I think in the vast majority of cases you can take a very educated guess at a person’s gender just by looking at them/interacting with them, and it’s likely to be correct. Unless you’re somewhere (eg a club with a largely gender queer clientele) with a much more diverse range of genders present than in everyday life.

Why do you assume that the women girls and boys don't have trans identities? Why does there have to be a significant number?

It’s more about the context and purpose of the communication. The headline is telling people in the UK in very brief terms about something happening to other people, elsewhere in the world, and it doesn’t have to have the degree of nuance other communications might. In the Uygher example, it might be the case that some men and boys are also being raped. That doesn’t mean the headline is wrong, if the vast majority of the victims are women. If half the victims were men, then the headline would be misleading. Similarly, some of the people it refers to as women might not identify as women, but unless the culture in question has a very high proportion of trans people (or it’s a culture which has an established ‘third gender’ proportion of the population, and they are also victims of the attacks in significant numbers), then it’s unlikely to be many. So the headline is accurate enough for the purpose for which its intended.

In the UK there is a drive to use inclusive language because of trans people. When it comes to female things anyway. Menstruators. People with vaginas. Etc etc. The number of trans people here is unlikely to be different to anywhere else in the world. People are people.

I don’t think I agree with that, I would have thought it’s fairly culturally specific.

So if the words women/ boys etc are ok to use in the type of situations I mentioned. Why are they not ok here, by exactly the same logic?

Again, it’s about the purpose and audience of the communication. If a packet of sanitary towels sold in the UK says ‘this product is for use by women during menstruation’, we know there are a significant number of people who need to buy and use those products who don’t regard themselves as women. So the language excludes them and may cause them distress when it doesn’t need to.

People lying about what sex they are is....illogical.

But Helen. What about the women who have English as a 2nd language or who have literacy problems

What about their exclusion

And what is a non trans woman 🤷‍♀️

@suggestionsplease1

Thanks Helen, I think I am largely in alignment with your thinking. (Although you may disagree with me on the next bit!)

I agree with all of that too! In a way I regard sport as the most clear-cut problematic example, because there is very strong objective correlation between a person having been through male puberty and physical differences that give them advantages in many fields of sport. I’m much more conflicted in relation to arguments based on male propensity to violence and abusive behaviour, which are based on a very small percentage of the male population. But I do still understand the concern about the potential for a small number of bad faith actors taking advantage, and the feelings of women who have been the victims of traumatising violence and abuse at the hands of men.

I’m much more conflicted in relation to arguments based on male propensity to violence and abusive behaviour, which are based on a very small percentage of the male population.

I am genuinely not trying to be critical but I really think you are minimising how much male violence there actually is. It's not the same man killing two women a week! Obviously yes it's objectively a small proportion, but as I said in another thread, take a few minutes to imagine a world where we wake up tomorrow and there was no male violence, or where men were violent at the same level as women. The world would be massively different. Crime, health services, racism, families, social services, mental health services, and that's before we get into changing rooms and prisons. Male physical violence underlies so much, abuse and fear of aggression on top of that.
And think about how many women have experience of it that shapes their perceptions, whether those perceptions are then 100% accurate or not.

This from rape crisis England
This is not a small amount of men

20% of women and 4% of men have experienced some type of sexual assault since the age of 16, equivalent to 3.4 million female and 631,000 male victims
3.1% of women (510,000) and 0.8% of men (138,000) aged 16 to 59 had experienced a sexual assault in the last year.
In January 2013, An Overview of Sexual Offending in England and Wales, the first ever joint official statistics bulletin on sexual violence released by the Ministry of Justice (MoJ), Office for National Statistics (ONS) and Home Office, revealed:

Approximately 85,000 women and 12,000 men (aged 16 - 59) experience rape, attempted rape or sexual assault by penetration in England and Wales alone every year; that's roughly 11 of the most serious sexual offences (of adults alone) every hour.
Only around 15% of those who experience sexual violence report to the police
Approximately 90% of those who are raped know the perpetrat

@littlbrowndog heartbreaking thing is the lack of reporting and if everyone did report it I bet the male figures would increase by a hell of a lot.

[quote Helen8220]**@suggestionsplease1

Thanks Helen, I think I am largely in alignment with your thinking. (Although you may disagree with me on the next bit!)

I agree with all of that too! In a way I regard sport as the most clear-cut problematic example, because there is very strong objective correlation between a person having been through male puberty and physical differences that give them advantages in many fields of sport. I’m much more conflicted in relation to arguments based on male propensity to violence and abusive behaviour, which are based on a very small percentage of the male population. But I do still understand the concern about the potential for a small number of bad faith actors taking advantage, and the feelings of women who have been the victims of traumatising violence and abuse at the hands of men.[/quote]
@suggestionsplease1 @Helen8220 I agree with you both.

[quote MrsNewms85]@littlbrowndog heartbreaking thing is the lack of reporting and if everyone did report it I bet the male figures would increase by a hell of a lot.[/quote]
Finally something we agree on.

It’s astonishing that you find it so easy to disregard this backdrop when it comes to the issue of biologically male people who identify as trans.

I’m much more conflicted in relation to arguments based on male propensity to violence and abusive behaviour, which are based on a very small percentage of the male population. But I do still understand the concern about the potential for a small number of bad faith actors taking advantage, and the feelings of women who have been the victims of traumatising violence and abuse at the hands of men.

Yes bad faith actors may take advantage but there are just as many violent and or sex offenders amongst the transwomen community as you will find amongst other men. For example of the women murdered this year two were murdered by two transwomen.
Transwomen being male share all the same patterns if criminality as other males and that is also the reason that they can never be lesbians who are always female.

So there's one rule for women here and one for women >>> over there.

I see.

And you can tell someone's gender identity usually by looking at them? But gender presentation and gender identity are not linked.

So there's no women in Saudi who have an internal gender identity other than woman because they have no choice but to cover up.

Even though there's no reason why women in Saudi would be much less likely to have a trans internal gender ID than women in the UK.

You know none of this makes sense right? It's totally illogical.

The idea that there are males in the female camps in China is based on zero evidence and undermines the sex based atrocity that is being committed.

That's not good.

Did we ever find out what a non trans woman was?