Trans lesbian?

[Timeforatincture]

My first ever post on this board. Long time reader, and have found it highly educational. Thank you everyone.

There is a pullout in today's Guardian about influential lesbians. Cameos and longer pieces. One of the longer pieces is an interview with a "trans lesbian."

AIBUin thinking that's a bit odd?

Gay men and lesbians have an illegal sexual orientation. Max penalty death. Option to transition. I've read that means full medical transition - which makes sense given their views.

Given that. Why on earth would a homosexual person. A lesbian who has been put in that position. And transitioned.

In what world would that person be having sex with a man?

Excellent point. And it cuts the other way, too.

Gay men’s boundaries are on the whole not as porous as those of (some) lesbian women’s, because they have been socialised male and therefore not encouraged at every turn to put the well-being of others ahead of their own.

The number of self-identifying gay men who would actually choose to have a biologically female partner is absolutely tiny here in the “liberal” world. I mean minuscule. Gay men know what they want, and it isn’t vagina. In the countries we're speaking about, probably zero. A genuinely gay man is going to risk his life to have a relationship with a woman with a surgically constructed artificial penis? Really?

The idea is both offensive and so absurd it’s risible.

And what also stands out is Helen’s continued determination to ignore/deny the reality and validity of exclusively same sex attraction.

I notice you haven’t addressed that point at all, Helen. I would really like to know if you do think everyone is bisexual deep down, just not aware of it? Do you think gay men and lesbian women should just be more open to the idea of having partners of the opposite sex?

I remember you saying that you wanted polite, reasonable debate or something along those lines when you first joined these discussions. I’m not sure that propagating a really quite hateful viewpoint, as you seem to be doing, really fits in with that remit, no matter how polite the terms in which you couch it.

[quote Helen8220]@CardinalLolzy it wasn’t that I was envisaging anywhere would have explicitly criminalised sex with a trans person, it was that I imagine there may be places where sexual activity between two men is criminalised, and where sex between a trans man and a non-trans man might be prosecuted for that offence. Particularly if the trans man had fully surgically and hormonally transitioned and was believed to be a man (eg if they were a citizen of another country and their passport said they were male). Indeed, I believe Iran imposes the death penalty for sex between men, yet legally recognises transgender people (on the basis that it is a medical disorder that can be treated by transitioning). If a trans man was legally male under Iranian law and caught having sex with another man, I imagine they could be prosecuted for homosexual sex, though I don’t know for sure.[/quote]
So yet again we have a misunderstanding because you categorise trans people as those who have surgery, legal recognition etc, rather than accepting that it's having a gender identity in your head that makes you trans. If we can't define words consistently then we're just going to talk in circles. I just can't see a situation where mixed-sex couples (even if one identifies differently) would realistically be subject to the same level of discrimination as same-sex ones and it's a bit "all lives matter" to suggest they are.

Can those who argue that same gender attraction persecution exists show me one example of a same gender, opposite sex couple who have been punished by the law for undertaking sexual activities which would otherwise be legal? One example please. I'm sure there are bucketfuls, as you beleive that it is justified to re-write laws to accommodate them. Find me one example of a same gender, opposite sex couple who face legal sanction.

👏🏼 Talking. Nailed it!

I'm really stretched today ay work and won't be able to participate here for long, but I saw this from LangClegintheDark:

I notice you haven’t addressed that point at all, Helen. I would really like to know if you do think everyone is bisexual deep down, just not aware of it? Do you think gay men and lesbian women should just be more open to the idea of having partners of the opposite sex?

And I recalled it was Helen upthread who said that there were a great number of bisexualities, which I failed to question at the time. So I imagine that Helen is one of those sexuality-is-a-spectrum-type people who will argue that very few people are 100% same-sex orientated and therefore very few can argue that they're totally lesbian or totally gay. It's a chancer's charter.

Yep. And how they love to bully lesbian.

Did they misspell heterosexual male again?

The idea that lesbians just need a good shag with a man and they'll 'turn' is really old isn't it.

Try it you might like it etc.

Also I'd imagine advocates of corrective rape would use it as s justification.

@Clarice99 very happy for you that you and your hundreds of autistic friends have all got together and held a forum agreeing to describe your collective thinking styles as black and white. I was under the impression from my work and research that ASD is a highly heterogeneous condition, but I stand corrected, it is clearly not.

[quote suggestionsplease1]@Clarice99 very happy for you that you and your hundreds of autistic friends have all got together and held a forum agreeing to describe your collective thinking styles as black and white. I was under the impression from my work and research that ASD is a highly heterogeneous condition, but I stand corrected, it is clearly not.[/quote]
When did I say we held a forum?

We are people with a formal diagnosis of autism. A network of people with a diagnosis of a neurological condition. And we all agree on various elements of the condition. We agree NOT it applies to everyone. I hope that's clear enough.

Your work and research are meaningless to me.

This thread is about men claiming to be lesbians which is about as believable as unicorns setting up camp in my back garden.

I can't believe people are still arguing about something that doesn't exist. Would we be having this debate about Father Christmas or the Easter Bunny?

Male lesbians are not a thing outside of sissy porn.

'This thread is about men claiming to be lesbians which is about as believable as unicorns setting up camp in my back garden.'

Can I ask why you think that?

@YouJustDoYou

As far as I am aware she has never had a relationship despite being one of the more mature members of the group

Hate to break it to you, but age has nothing to do with the fact other lesbians aren't attracted to penis. That's why she's never had another relationship "desire her age", she says she's a translesbian but LESBIANS by nature are naturally attracted to female-bodied people. Not penis-havers Its why they're called lesbians.

This individual, like many who identify as trans lesbians, is very vulnerable, and has many additional difficulties socially and emotionally - these factors are likely far more instrumental to her not having had relationships than her age or who is attracted to her.

There are other trans lesbians that I am aware of in relationships with variously identifying others. But most of the time in these social settings nobody is focused on ID, anymore than Canadians in Canada are interested in each other identifying as Canadian - who cares? We're all in the same space together, all individuals capable of talking to each other and establishing if there is an attraction on a more personal, individual and holistic basis and can exclude those with genitals we're not interested in as we go along. We're not robots filing down a line of other robots with a binary code for acceptance or rejection.

@NiceGerbil

'This thread is about men claiming to be lesbians which is about as believable as unicorns setting up camp in my back garden.'

Can I ask why you think that?

Because men can't be lesbians.

@suggestionsplease1 ❤️

Sorry Clarice I took your post the wrong way.

You are correct of course.

@CardinalLolzy

So yet again we have a misunderstanding because you categorise trans people as those who have surgery, legal recognition etc, rather than accepting that it's having a gender identity in your head that makes you trans. If we can't define words consistently then we're just going to talk in circles. I just can't see a situation where mixed-sex couples (even if one identifies differently) would realistically be subject to the same level of discrimination as same-sex ones and it's a bit "all lives matter" to suggest they are.

I don’t categorise trans people as only those who have had the most extensive medical interventions, but it’s obviously easiest to illustrate what I’m talking about in relation to those people.

I don’t think gender is just in your head - it’s a complicated mix of how how you feel, how you relate to other people, how other people perceive you.

I don’t see the ‘all lives matter’ comparison at all - saying that in response to Black Lives Matter is to directly refuse to acknowledge the very specific risks and obstacles faced by black people. The equivalent in relation to be homophobia would be, for example, responding to the Stonewall ‘some people are gay, get over it’ message with ‘some people think it’s wrong to be gay, get over it’.

I am acutely aware of the discrimination and oppression experienced by lesbian, gay and bisexual people. I just think that those who persecute them don’t necessarily do so purely on the basis of ‘biological sex’ - if two people in a relationship are perceived by the homophobic onlooker to be both men, or both women, I don’t believe the aggressor will generally back down if they find out one of the people is trans.

Well obviously not because homophobes aren't likely to be very on board with trans people either

They tend to go for people who are 'different' full stop.

Did you read the responses about the headlines?

Interested to hear your thoughts.

[quote Helen8220]@CardinalLolzy

So yet again we have a misunderstanding because you categorise trans people as those who have surgery, legal recognition etc, rather than accepting that it's having a gender identity in your head that makes you trans. If we can't define words consistently then we're just going to talk in circles. I just can't see a situation where mixed-sex couples (even if one identifies differently) would realistically be subject to the same level of discrimination as same-sex ones and it's a bit "all lives matter" to suggest they are.

I don’t categorise trans people as only those who have had the most extensive medical interventions, but it’s obviously easiest to illustrate what I’m talking about in relation to those people.

I don’t think gender is just in your head - it’s a complicated mix of how how you feel, how you relate to other people, how other people perceive you.

I don’t see the ‘all lives matter’ comparison at all - saying that in response to Black Lives Matter is to directly refuse to acknowledge the very specific risks and obstacles faced by black people. The equivalent in relation to be homophobia would be, for example, responding to the Stonewall ‘some people are gay, get over it’ message with ‘some people think it’s wrong to be gay, get over it’.

I am acutely aware of the discrimination and oppression experienced by lesbian, gay and bisexual people. I just think that those who persecute them don’t necessarily do so purely on the basis of ‘biological sex’ - if two people in a relationship are perceived by the homophobic onlooker to be both men, or both women, I don’t believe the aggressor will generally back down if they find out one of the people is trans.[/quote]
Agree with this.

I don’t categorise trans people as only those who have had the most extensive medical interventions, but it’s obviously easiest to illustrate what I’m talking about in relation to those people.

I don’t think gender is just in your head - it’s a complicated mix of how how you feel, how you relate to other people, how other people perceive you.

So it's what someone looks like that might dictate whether they experience homophobia or not? Do you draw the same distinction as to whether they are homosexual (or hetero) or not?

I mean, "perceived as homosexual" has a lot of possibilities, I'm not discounting that lots of ppl may be, for any reason, perceived as homosexual when they're not, but I'm not sure what this has to do with a trans person actively choosing to look in a way that would get them arrested etc in a restrictive country. Of course I'm not saying they shouldn't do this but I'd be interested to see how trans gay people navigate it.

@NiceGerbil

Sorry Clarice I took your post the wrong way.

You are correct of course.

No problem

suggestionsplease1, you said:

There are other trans lesbians that I am aware of in relationships with variously identifying others. But most of the time in these social settings nobody is focused on ID, anymore than Canadians in Canada are interested in each other identifying as Canadian - who cares? We're all in the same space together, all individuals capable of talking to each other and establishing if there is an attraction on a more personal, individual and holistic basis and can exclude those with genitals we're not interested in as we go along. We're not robots filing down a line of other robots with a binary code for acceptance or rejection.

This is the way that gay and lesbian people who suffer from internalised homophobia have always explained away their homosexuality or bisexuality: 'Why should bodies matter when it's the person you're attracted to?' I'm pretty sure I said it myself when I first nervously came out. I heard it only a few weeks ago where at a lesbian gathering a woman, recently divorced from a man, said she didn't really think of herself as a lesbian, more that she was attracted to women's personalities.

The younger lesbians said 'Yes, absolutely' and the older ones gently pointed out that lesbians include a huge range of personalities and also that her assumption that women were like this, and men were like that, indicated a gendered view of the world.

If you can't commit to the word lesbian and if your dating pool may include people who have male-sexed bodies, you're not a lesbian. The definition of a lesbian is a woman who is same-sex oriented. Otherwise she's bisexual or pansexual.

@Shedbuilder

suggestionsplease1, you said:

There are other trans lesbians that I am aware of in relationships with variously identifying others. But most of the time in these social settings nobody is focused on ID, anymore than Canadians in Canada are interested in each other identifying as Canadian - who cares? We're all in the same space together, all individuals capable of talking to each other and establishing if there is an attraction on a more personal, individual and holistic basis and can exclude those with genitals we're not interested in as we go along. We're not robots filing down a line of other robots with a binary code for acceptance or rejection.

This is the way that gay and lesbian people who suffer from internalised homophobia have always explained away their homosexuality or bisexuality: 'Why should bodies matter when it's the person you're attracted to?' I'm pretty sure I said it myself when I first nervously came out. I heard it only a few weeks ago where at a lesbian gathering a woman, recently divorced from a man, said she didn't really think of herself as a lesbian, more that she was attracted to women's personalities.

The younger lesbians said 'Yes, absolutely' and the older ones gently pointed out that lesbians include a huge range of personalities and also that her assumption that women were like this, and men were like that, indicated a gendered view of the world.

If you can't commit to the word lesbian and if your dating pool may include people who have male-sexed bodies, you're not a lesbian. The definition of a lesbian is a woman who is same-sex oriented. Otherwise she's bisexual or pansexual.

If you can't commit to the word lesbian and if your dating pool may include people who have male-sexed bodies, you're not a lesbian.

This thread seemed to start, in part, from a place of concern for lesbian erasure.

Are you not concerned that an absolutist approach may lead to greater lesbian erasure?

Should the woman who slept with a man when she was young but now only sleeps with women properly define as bisexual, and not use the word lesbian?

Should the woman who has only ever slept with women but is presently feeling confused because she is experiencing some passing attraction for a man, rethink her identity and not use the word lesbian, even if she never acts on it?

Should the woman who feels strongly attracted to women but has never had sex with anyone correctly define herself as a lesbian?

You could get a smaller and smaller pool of IDing lesbians couldn't you? They would start to be erased because of the strict requirements of the terminology.

For me, in a way, this doesn't matter as I'm not hugely invested in the terminology - I'm happy with a 'best fit' approach for myself. The word lesbian makes rough sense for me, and I don't have time to detail the various ways I might be considered an exception (does this remind anyone of the gold star lesbians debates haha). I just know it's roughly right, it's a community that makes sense to me and is filled with a load of others who feel it is 'roughly right' for them as well, and of course plenty who feel it is not just roughly right, but absolutely right.

But I am sure, according to some standards, I should be erased from it.

You (and possibly I) might not agree with others who feel the terminology is a right fit for them, but here's where I imagine we differ:

1. I largely believe people who are choosing to ID as lesbian or trans lesbian etc are doing so from a position of good faith - they are trying to find the right space for them in the world. I don't know what's going on for them, but most of the time I'm seeing pretty vulnerable people who are relieved to experience a sense of community and develop some friendships. I'm not happy to be someone who takes a precious sense of community away from another on the basis of what is between their legs. In a potential dating situation I absolutely believe they should disclose male genitalia if they have not surgically transitioned, just as I believe everyone should disclose in advance anything they could reasonably anticipate might make a material difference to a sexual partner.

1. I don't see, from where I'm at, a change to the dynamic of the real world lesbian groups that I have been part of for years. We are not suddenly being over run by loads of people identifying as trans lesbians. I don't see this as a thin end of the wedge situation and that suddenly the group will become totally different in character - I think this is still a fairly uncommon way to identify (trans lesbian anyway, I don't mean trans which is certainly becoming more common).