Trans lesbian?

[Timeforatincture]

My first ever post on this board. Long time reader, and have found it highly educational. Thank you everyone.

There is a pullout in today's Guardian about influential lesbians. Cameos and longer pieces. One of the longer pieces is an interview with a "trans lesbian."

AIBUin thinking that's a bit odd?

How can sexual attraction towards someone you've only just seen, or met, be based on an invisible feeling in their head?

Agree. It can be based partly on the way they present I guess. But just because someone is wearing stereotypically female clothes for example doesn't mean they even have a gender identity.

@DrBlackbird here you go - it’s in the 4th section (sorry, ‘paragraph’ was misleading) just above the title ‘Sustainable Development Goals (SDGs): gender and sex’

The redefinition of the words that have had specific meanings for an awfully long time, and that still have those definitions for the vast vast majority of people here and over the world (in their language) is a massive act of appropriation.

The fact that the words being redefined are words that have been used by various rights movements to fight for change.

Words that still in law penalise certain groups.

Woman girl lesbian gay man. Homosexual. Female even. Really fundamental terms to describe large groups (half the population for girls and women) being unilaterally changed.

The arrogant imposition, insistence that the new definitions are the ones that must apply. Even though it makes a nonsense of women's rights, gay and lesbian rights issues, statements and activism.

That any attempt to describe these groups otherwise- rights for people who are assumed to have ovaries, rights for homosexuals. Are lambasted for being dog whistles, exclusionary etc.

We're not allowed any words instead of the ones that were well understood, clear, and still used that way by pretty much everyone.

Why are homosexuals and female people not to have any name as a group? How are we to organise and raise awareness about the many different issues we need to address, and that are specific to those groups, without any words?

I note that even media outlets and charities that say woman is a category for anyone who wants to be in that category. Still use the words with the original meaning for their fundraising and headline news.

When the BBC says girls in X country have been targeted in some way they mean sex. Vagina havers.

They never say children with vaginas have been targeted. They say girls.

So they don't take believe girl means any child who feels like a girl do they. Or they are not prepared to put their money where their mouth is. So they are liars, or they are cowards.

Also the fact that the words man and boy have not been subjected to the same level of outrage if they are used to mean male. Even on many things where the word woman has been erased.

GrownUp- thing is presentation is different to ID.

You can't assume someone's gender based on their appearance.

Yes, that's what I'm saying.

Helen, I still don't get what this has to do with having casual Facebook groups for same sex attracted people. Or eg a small local group of lesbians who meet once a week in the pub.

It's not relevant surely.

What I'd be really interested in is the words you think should be used for various rights groups. For example. A group who want to raise awareness of same sex people having sex being illegal in loads of countries.

How would you phrase eg

Girls missing out on education in X country.

Militia group attacks village, kidnaps the children. In previous incidents the girls have been used as sex slaves and the boys have been forced to be child soldiers.

Uighar women systematically raped in Chinese camps.

How do you think those headlines should be rewritten?

How can sexual attraction towards someone you've only just seen, or met, be based on an invisible feeling in their head?

Agree. It can be based partly on the way they present I guess. But just because someone is wearing stereotypically female clothes for example doesn't mean they even have a gender identity.

Well exactly. Surely we use sexuality category labels to describe to other people (and ourselves) something about the type of people we’re generally attracted to and/or choose to be sexually intimate with (by reference to our own sex or gender). We don’t pick a sexual orientation for ourselves in advance, then have to go around finding out whether each person falls within the correct sex or gender category before deciding if we fancy them.

Gay men subject to prison in X country.

What is the correct way of writing these things?

@Helen8220

How can sexual attraction towards someone you've only just seen, or met, be based on an invisible feeling in their head?

Agree. It can be based partly on the way they present I guess. But just because someone is wearing stereotypically female clothes for example doesn't mean they even have a gender identity.

Well exactly. Surely we use sexuality category labels to describe to other people (and ourselves) something about the type of people we’re generally attracted to and/or choose to be sexually intimate with (by reference to our own sex or gender). We don’t pick a sexual orientation for ourselves in advance, then have to go around finding out whether each person falls within the correct sex or gender category before deciding if we fancy them.

Well not really.

I see a bloke I fancy in a bar.
I go and say hello etc.
They shortly reveal that they are a lesbian.
I'm not a lesbian so that's the end of that.
I don't fancy women.

Sexuality labels are often applied by those who think they are immoral etc.

Those people are not talking about things based on internal gender. They are talking about bodies. Cock/ cunt.

Helen, I still don't get what this has to do with having casual Facebook groups for same sex attracted people. Or eg a small local group of lesbians who meet once a week in the pub.

If I recall correctly, the discussion about the EA came up because someone (Datun I think) said that accepting trans women can be lesbians would undermine the protection provided to lesbians under the EA. I disagreed and explained why. I don’t think she’s responded yet, but it resulted in an offshoot discussion about how the EA works

Sexuality labels are often applied by those who think they are immoral etc.

Those people are not talking about things based on internal gender. They are talking about bodies. Cock/ cunt.

I’m not convinced that a person who shouts abuse at, or physically attacks, a same sex/gender couple walking down the street would say ‘sorry, my mistake’ if they found out one of the couple was actually trans?

Ok. That makes sense.

I'd be really interested in how you think the headline type phrases I wrote should be rewritten.

“Well not really.

I see a bloke I fancy in a bar.
I go and say hello etc.
They shortly reveal that they are a lesbian.
I'm not a lesbian so that's the end of that.
I don't fancy women.”

Or, for some other women, they instead go ‘that’s interesting, I didn’t realise I was attracted to some women as well as men - I’ll see where this goes’.

I'd be really interested in how you think the headline type phrases I wrote should be rewritten.

Thanks for posting those. I promised my partner I’d go to bed at a reasonable time tonight rather than posting on MN until 2am (again!) but I will respond to you on those tomorrow.
Goodnight

And the people who write laws banning homosexual sex?

You are comfortable with the groups / countries / religions that use gay man/ lesbian to mean what they used to mean, while the rest of the world uses a different definition?

I think that's a peculiar stance tbh.

Looking forward to it Helen.

Or, for some other women, they instead go ‘that’s interesting, I didn’t realise I was attracted to some women as well as men - I’ll see where this goes’.

So what? So what? Yes, some women who had thought they were straight will discover they’re bisexual during the course of their lives.

How does that in any way impact on the fact that the majority won’t?

Why can’t you understand that for many, many people - the majority of people - the sex of their partner matters, to the point that it’s absolutely non-negotiable? What is your investment in denying this reality? How can you be so blinkered to your own homophobia here, when the example is extrapolated out to the lesbian community, which is what we’re really taking about?

You know that straight women aren’t coming under awful social pressure to sleep with lesbians. Straight women aren’t being kicked off dating apps for saying they only want biologically male partners. Nor are straight men being harassed for not wanting dick.

People like you, with your denial of the reality of single sex attraction, are fuelling the environment where lesbian women like Lucy Masoud, in the article I linked to way upthread, are being excluded from what is supposed to be their own community. Because she doesn’t want to date anyone with a penis, or who once had a penis, full stop.

I mean, what is your agenda here? Do you actually believe that everyone is bisexual really, they’re just in denial about it? Because that’s increasingly the only conclusion I can draw from your seemingly bigoted refusal to recognise that strictly single sex attraction, whether hetero or homo, is a real thing.

Why can’t you understand that for many, many people - the majority of people - the sex of their partner matters, to the point that it’s absolutely non-negotiable? What is your investment in denying this reality? How can you be so blinkered to your own homophobia here, when the example is extrapolated out to the lesbian community, which is what we’re really taking about?

@TalkingtoLangClegintheDark

Or, for some other women, they instead go ‘that’s interesting, I didn’t realise I was attracted to some women as well as men - I’ll see where this goes’.

So what? So what? Yes, some women who had thought they were straight will discover they’re bisexual during the course of their lives.

How does that in any way impact on the fact that the majority won’t?

Why can’t you understand that for many, many people - the majority of people - the sex of their partner matters, to the point that it’s absolutely non-negotiable? What is your investment in denying this reality? How can you be so blinkered to your own homophobia here, when the example is extrapolated out to the lesbian community, which is what we’re really taking about?

You know that straight women aren’t coming under awful social pressure to sleep with lesbians. Straight women aren’t being kicked off dating apps for saying they only want biologically male partners. Nor are straight men being harassed for not wanting dick.

People like you, with your denial of the reality of single sex attraction, are fuelling the environment where lesbian women like Lucy Masoud, in the article I linked to way upthread, are being excluded from what is supposed to be their own community. Because she doesn’t want to date anyone with a penis, or who once had a penis, full stop.

I mean, what is your agenda here? Do you actually believe that everyone is bisexual really, they’re just in denial about it? Because that’s increasingly the only conclusion I can draw from your seemingly bigoted refusal to recognise that strictly single sex attraction, whether hetero or homo, is a real thing.

Bloody good post there TalkingtoLangCleg.

@TalkingtoLangClegintheDark

Or, for some other women, they instead go ‘that’s interesting, I didn’t realise I was attracted to some women as well as men - I’ll see where this goes’.

So what? So what? Yes, some women who had thought they were straight will discover they’re bisexual during the course of their lives.

How does that in any way impact on the fact that the majority won’t?

Why can’t you understand that for many, many people - the majority of people - the sex of their partner matters, to the point that it’s absolutely non-negotiable? What is your investment in denying this reality? How can you be so blinkered to your own homophobia here, when the example is extrapolated out to the lesbian community, which is what we’re really taking about?

You know that straight women aren’t coming under awful social pressure to sleep with lesbians. Straight women aren’t being kicked off dating apps for saying they only want biologically male partners. Nor are straight men being harassed for not wanting dick.

People like you, with your denial of the reality of single sex attraction, are fuelling the environment where lesbian women like Lucy Masoud, in the article I linked to way upthread, are being excluded from what is supposed to be their own community. Because she doesn’t want to date anyone with a penis, or who once had a penis, full stop.

I mean, what is your agenda here? Do you actually believe that everyone is bisexual really, they’re just in denial about it? Because that’s increasingly the only conclusion I can draw from your seemingly bigoted refusal to recognise that strictly single sex attraction, whether hetero or homo, is a real thing.

@TalkingtoLangClegintheDark

Thank you so much for your excellent post.

Just in case anyone has forgotten OP
Transwomen are male.
Lesbians are female.
Transwomen can't be lesbians.
Lesbians can't be transwomen.
Transwomen attracted to women are heterosexual, i.e. they are attracted to the sex not their own.
Lesbians attracted to women are homosexual, i.e. they are attracted to the sex that is their own.

You know that straight women aren’t coming under awful social pressure to sleep with lesbians. Straight women aren’t being kicked off dating apps for saying they only want biologically male partners. Nor are straight men being harassed for not wanting dick.

Indeed.

The bottom line is lesbians are targeted for validation purposes.

It's breathtaking arrogance. Lesbians, of all women, are the ones who are not sexually orientated towards males. The fact that they are singled out, because a straight women is useless for validation, is utterly shameful.

The bottom line is lesbians are targeted for validation purposes.

Lesbians, of all women, are the ones who are not sexually orientated towards males. The fact that they are singled out, because a straight women is useless for validation, is utterly shameful.

Yes, Datun. Arrogance, and misogyny - seeing women as service humans, and using them as such.