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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Trans lesbian?

703 replies

Timeforatincture · 26/04/2021 18:39

My first ever post on this board. Long time reader, and have found it highly educational. Thank you everyone.

There is a pullout in today's Guardian about influential lesbians. Cameos and longer pieces. One of the longer pieces is an interview with a "trans lesbian."

AIBUin thinking that's a bit odd?

OP posts:
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6
Ereshkigalangcleg · 21/06/2021 13:42

So true, Datun and Talking.

Datun · 21/06/2021 13:46

@TalkingtoLangClegintheDark

The bottom line is lesbians are targeted for validation purposes.

Lesbians, of all women, are the ones who are not sexually orientated towards males. The fact that they are singled out, because a straight women is useless for validation, is utterly shameful.

Yes, Datun. Arrogance, and misogyny - seeing women as service humans, and using them as such.

And not just any woman, the specific category of women for whom relationships and sex with a male, any male, is abhorrent.
mollythemeerkat · 21/06/2021 14:43

Agree with the last ten or so posts. Its a mystery to me how anyone can deny the reality of same sex or opposite sex attraction based on biology, being primary for a large number of people. Presumably as suggested, Helen does think everyone is bi-sexual but either not realising it or in denial about it. Not giving people the respect that they have knowledge and agency over their own sexuality seems out of order to me.

Bertiebiscuit · 21/06/2021 14:57

DO NOT DARE QUESTION GROUPTHINK - WOMEN ARE NOW ONLY ALLOWED TO HAVE THOUGHTS THAT ARE SANCTIONED BY THE PATRIARCHY - GO STRAIGHT TO THE RE EDUCATION CAMP

suggestionsplease1 · 21/06/2021 15:11

I'll be going out on Friday night, just I did last Friday night, with a group of lesbian friends from a larger lesbian group that has hundreds of members. Guess what - there will be a trans lesbian present. She has been a member for years and is welcomed by all. She's with us because she feels at home in our presence and has faced rejection in so many other areas. She, like many of our members, is vulnerable, socially isolated and lacking support in other areas of her life. You may not be surprised that she also has ASD, which is fairly common amongst the population. As far as I am aware she has never had a relationship despite being one of the more mature members of the group. She is shy, reserved and peaceful and does not tend to initiate conversations. She is a million miles away from aggressively expecting sex from anyone else present - which would seem to be what many on this thread expect from her. In my many, many nights out over the years, I have never seen this behaviour from a trans lesbian.

Erikrie · 21/06/2021 15:21

which would seem to be what many on this thread expect from her. In my many, many nights out over the years, I have never seen this behaviour from a trans lesbian.

Why would we expect that from your friend. We don't even know them. The rate of male pattern violence does not however reduce because a male decides to identify as a female. Not all men are violent. But the majority of violent crimes and sexual assaults are carried out by men.
Hope this helps.

Datun · 21/06/2021 15:29

@suggestionsplease1

I'll be going out on Friday night, just I did last Friday night, with a group of lesbian friends from a larger lesbian group that has hundreds of members. Guess what - there will be a trans lesbian present. She has been a member for years and is welcomed by all. She's with us because she feels at home in our presence and has faced rejection in so many other areas. She, like many of our members, is vulnerable, socially isolated and lacking support in other areas of her life. You may not be surprised that she also has ASD, which is fairly common amongst the population. As far as I am aware she has never had a relationship despite being one of the more mature members of the group. She is shy, reserved and peaceful and does not tend to initiate conversations. She is a million miles away from aggressively expecting sex from anyone else present - which would seem to be what many on this thread expect from her. In my many, many nights out over the years, I have never seen this behaviour from a trans lesbian.
None of this is about individuals.

It's about the concept of what constitutes sexual orientation.

Which is nothing to do with whether or not you and your friends, personally, accept a transwoman as a lesbian.

It's the same with the meaning of the word woman. It has a distinct meaning. Just because some people are happy to call male individuals women, it should not change the concept that sex is binary and you can't actually change from one to the other.

This isn't about being kind to individuals, it's about laws, policies and protocols that have been set up to address the disadvantage that women face in society.

CardinalLolzy · 21/06/2021 16:19

In my many, many nights out over the years, I have never seen this behaviour from a trans lesbian.

I've seen loads of aggressive behaviour when I've gone out. I have no idea about the inner gender identity or sexual orientation of those people so I couldn't truthfully or accurately make such a statement.

I'm mildly interested as to how one goes through life without seeing any aggressive or demanding behaviour from strangers on the streets or in pubs, but I would suggest it's unusual enough that perhaps such a person might not have the relevant knowledge to tell women that they shouldn't worry about that sort of behaviour, because it's never happened to them!

Clarice99 · 21/06/2021 17:39

@suggestionsplease1

I'll be going out on Friday night, just I did last Friday night, with a group of lesbian friends from a larger lesbian group that has hundreds of members. Guess what - there will be a trans lesbian present. She has been a member for years and is welcomed by all. She's with us because she feels at home in our presence and has faced rejection in so many other areas. She, like many of our members, is vulnerable, socially isolated and lacking support in other areas of her life. You may not be surprised that she also has ASD, which is fairly common amongst the population. As far as I am aware she has never had a relationship despite being one of the more mature members of the group. She is shy, reserved and peaceful and does not tend to initiate conversations. She is a million miles away from aggressively expecting sex from anyone else present - which would seem to be what many on this thread expect from her. In my many, many nights out over the years, I have never seen this behaviour from a trans lesbian.
Just because you claim not to have seen aggressive behaviour from a 'transwoman' doesn't mean it doesn't happen. It just hasn't happened to you.

As an autistic person with a large amount of contacts within the autistic community, mainly women, in my 'social circle' and beyond, I would point out that none of us 'identify' as anything other than our biological sex. Our black and white thinking means we stick to science, to biology, to facts, and not ideology.

The trans ideology may be more prevalent in autistic teens who are confused/succumb to peer pressure/pressure from social media/trying to fit in etc.

So while you may know one person, in my hundreds of autistic adult contacts, and as an autistic adult human female myself, there's not one 'trans person' in my autistic contacts group.

suggestionsplease1 · 21/06/2021 21:51

@Clarice99 - some very highly regarded recent research in this area

www.spectrumnews.org/news/largest-study-to-date-confirms-overlap-between-autism-and-gender-diversity/

suggestionsplease1 · 21/06/2021 21:55

"Our black and white thinking" ....yikes...are your friends in the autistic community happy that you are speaking on their behalf?

TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 21/06/2021 22:16

Just because you claim not to have seen aggressive behaviour from a 'transwoman' doesn't mean it doesn't happen. It just hasn't happened to you.

Yes, Clarice, this was my reaction too.

It feels like you’re implying, suggestionsplease1, that if you’ve never seen it, it never happens.

The women it has happened to, the Lucy Masouds, the daughters of women on this thread, the women right here giving their own testimony about how their social spaces and “community” have been changed by biologically male people having or claiming access to them, the women here posting examples of the crap they have to put up with in online lesbian spaces, posts that clearly fetishise women in general and lesbians in particular - posts that are clearly made by male people who get a sexual kick just out of invading those spaces and imposing their sexual proclivities on the women in those groups, whether those women wish it or not, whether they consent or not - you seem to be implying that none of those women even exist, suggestions, never mind matter!

Just because you and your friends have such porous boundaries that you are happy to put your energies into taking care of a vulnerable male in a space that’s meant to be for females, doesn’t mean every other woman should be happy to do the same.

Some women want something for themselves and themselves exclusively. I know, shocking concept in a world that doesn’t encourage females putting themselves first! A world that doesn’t approve of women having something quite apart from the control, oversight or participation of male people/men!

But this is the feminism and women’s rights board, after all, and we do have some of those seditious ideas. Try not to have an attack of the vapours, however desperately you may wish we could return to the 19th century.

Just because you are willing to bend the laws of science and logic and pretend that a biologically male person who’s sexually attracted to women can be called a lesbian if that person is vulnerable enough (or in other contexts domineering enough, or manipulative enough) doesn’t make you a better or more admirable person than the women who aren’t willing to do the same.

It makes you someone who has made a choice to be on the side of the existing power structures, rather than someone who is pushing for radical change to address the real, deep-rooted inequality and injustice that sits at the very foundation of our society. And it is of course your perfect right to make that choice.

It’s not your perfect right however to demand other women do the same. Or that other women deny their own, very real, experience when it differs so radically from yours. Or that we collude with you in pretending there’s anything feminist whatsoever about your choice.

I put you on a par with the women who fought against women’s suffrage, myself.

TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 21/06/2021 22:19

[quote suggestionsplease1]@Clarice99 - some very highly regarded recent research in this area

www.spectrumnews.org/news/largest-study-to-date-confirms-overlap-between-autism-and-gender-diversity/[/quote]
And wrt this, I think you’re missing the old chicken and egg point.

Ladylokidoki · 21/06/2021 22:20

I have read this thread and honestly all @suggestionsplease1 seems to post is that 'I haven't seen it so it doesn't happen'

Imagine thinking your experience is the only one that counts.

I can't work out wether you are blinkered or have such poor boundaries, you can't tell when other women boundaries are being ignored.

334bu · 21/06/2021 22:25

There will be lots of lovely transwomen with whom I am sure many lesbians might like to socialise. However, these lovely. transwomen are all male and therefore cannot be lesbians. They might have a relationship with a women but this will be a hetereosexual relationship because the couple don't share the same sex.

YouJustDoYou · 21/06/2021 22:27

I HATE penis. Hate them. I think they're disgusting, vile things, and they don't get me turned in in the slightest, nor have they ever. EVER. Not in all my 40 years. I can't change the way I feel. No fucking woke arsehole can force-change the way I feel either.

YouJustDoYou · 21/06/2021 22:31

As far as I am aware she has never had a relationship despite being one of the more mature members of the group

Hate to break it to you, but age has nothing to do with the fact other lesbians aren't attracted to penis. That's why she's never had another relationship "desire her age", she says she's a translesbian but LESBIANS by nature are naturally attracted to female-bodied people. Not penis-havers Its why they're called lesbians.

Helen8220 · 22/06/2021 00:02

@NiceGerbil sorry for the delay responding.

What I'd be really interested in is the words you think should be used for various rights groups. For example. A group who want to raise awareness of same sex people having sex being illegal in loads of countries.

How would you phrase eg

Girls missing out on education in X country.

Militia group attacks village, kidnaps the children. In previous incidents the girls have been used as sex slaves and the boys have been forced to be child soldiers.

Uighar women systematically raped in Chinese camps.

How do you think those headlines should be rewritten?

I don’t actually think any of those headlines need to be rewritten, unless there was reason to think that a significant proportion of the people they are referring to do not identify in the way they are being referred to.

On raising awareness about countries outlawing same sex sexual activity or relationships, I would refer to whatever behaviour was actually penalised in those countries, or would talk about lesbian, gay and bisexual people (or LGBT people, if trans and gender non-conforming people were also the subject of state-sanctioned discrimination) being oppressed. I might use ‘same sex activity’ as an umbrella term for same sex and same gender activity, insofar as a country would, for example, criminalise sexual activity between a trans man and a non-trans man.

CardinalLolzy · 22/06/2021 00:09

insofar as a country would, for example, criminalise sexual activity between a trans man and a non-trans man.

Is this a hypothetical or are you aware of any country that criminalises this? Unless it's because it's outside of marriage or something? Could you be clear in what you mean by 'trans man' in this sense i.e. do you mean something other than a female-born person who feels male?
Just curious as to whether there is anywhere that has written laws like this based on gender identity.

Helen8220 · 22/06/2021 00:19

@CardinalLolzy it wasn’t that I was envisaging anywhere would have explicitly criminalised sex with a trans person, it was that I imagine there may be places where sexual activity between two men is criminalised, and where sex between a trans man and a non-trans man might be prosecuted for that offence. Particularly if the trans man had fully surgically and hormonally transitioned and was believed to be a man (eg if they were a citizen of another country and their passport said they were male). Indeed, I believe Iran imposes the death penalty for sex between men, yet legally recognises transgender people (on the basis that it is a medical disorder that can be treated by transitioning). If a trans man was legally male under Iranian law and caught having sex with another man, I imagine they could be prosecuted for homosexual sex, though I don’t know for sure.

NiceGerbil · 22/06/2021 03:31

'I don’t actually think any of those headlines need to be rewritten, unless there was reason to think that a significant proportion of the people they are referring to do not identify in the way they are being referred to.'

I find this answer unsatisfactory.

You can't know anyone's gender unless you ask. Or they tell you.

Why do you assume that the women girls and boys don't have trans identities? Why does there have to be a significant number?

In the UK there is a drive to use inclusive language because of trans people. When it comes to female things anyway.

Menstruators. People with vaginas. Etc etc.

The number of trans people here is unlikely to be different to anywhere else in the world. People are people.

So if the words women/ boys etc are ok to use in the type of situations I mentioned.

Why are they not ok here, by exactly the same logic?

If the word women is not used for female but for internal identity. Then I can see no justification for using it in the examples I gave.

The things that are being done are due to sex. The words woman, boy etc do not refer to sex.

Your justification for them being fine in those circumstances makes no sense to me.

Can you explain further please why sometimes these words can be used for sex and other times they can't?

NiceGerbil · 22/06/2021 03:33

There is also the point that it's very unclear to the people receiving the news.

Are these things being done on the basis of sex, or gender ID?

The lack of clarity means that no one knows who is actually being abused/ murdered/ raped. And when that's going on to a whole group of people it's not a trivial matter to know who is actually being treated that way.

NiceGerbil · 22/06/2021 03:52

[quote Helen8220]@CardinalLolzy it wasn’t that I was envisaging anywhere would have explicitly criminalised sex with a trans person, it was that I imagine there may be places where sexual activity between two men is criminalised, and where sex between a trans man and a non-trans man might be prosecuted for that offence. Particularly if the trans man had fully surgically and hormonally transitioned and was believed to be a man (eg if they were a citizen of another country and their passport said they were male). Indeed, I believe Iran imposes the death penalty for sex between men, yet legally recognises transgender people (on the basis that it is a medical disorder that can be treated by transitioning). If a trans man was legally male under Iranian law and caught having sex with another man, I imagine they could be prosecuted for homosexual sex, though I don’t know for sure.[/quote]
Gay men and lesbians have an illegal sexual orientation. Max penalty death. Option to transition. I've read that means full medical transition - which makes sense given their views.

Given that. Why on earth would a homosexual person. A lesbian who has been put in that position. And transitioned.

In what world would that person be having sex with a man?

I don't understand. If a lesbian in Iran is attracted to men as well as women. Then the option of suppressing the attraction to women. And avoiding massive surgery or death. Is going to be an option. Rather than being arrested, given the choice, having massive surgery, and then having sex with a man?

I'm genuinely quite baffled.

I read an article years ago with an Iranian woman interviewed who had been in this position. I'm not sure how but she got to another country. I remember it well because she said she didn't know what a lesbian was. Same sex attraction was not something she had any kind of info about. They said she must be a man and should have medical intervention. Given what she knew, that made sense.

Clarice99 · 22/06/2021 06:44

[quote suggestionsplease1]@Clarice99 - some very highly regarded recent research in this area

www.spectrumnews.org/news/largest-study-to-date-confirms-overlap-between-autism-and-gender-diversity/[/quote]
I am aware of the research.

I cited my network/group. You cited one person.

My network group agree on our black and white thinking. I'm not speaking on behalf of all autistic people, never have, never will. You know very well that I referred to 'my network' of many and you referred to your network of one.

This topic isn't about autism and 'trans' yet it's interesting from all of the quotes made of your previous post, you pick on mine.

The thread is about transwomen aka biological men claiming to be lesbians, which is not possible and you have failed to provide any evidence to back up that particular claim.

TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 22/06/2021 08:03

I find this answer unsatisfactory.

Me too, NiceGerbil.

There’s a complete lack of internal consistency in your response, Helen.

It’s almost as if you know your “argument” is specious bullshit, but you’ve got to try and find a way round it somehow anyway, because you’ve nailed your colours to the mast now and you’re damn well going to stick with them.

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