Could you stay married to a TRA?

[SapphosRock]

She believes TWAW, their feelings are more important than women’s rights and some lesbians have penises. Get over it. She was on here once upon a time but got permanently banned.
Everything else about the relationship is wonderful. Can we get past this? It seems like a stupid reason to get divorced. Our values used to be fairly similar but she’s got heavily involved in trans activism and I have gone the other way. Sorry for the pity party, just feel quite down about it today. Has anyone else been through similar?

I agree that the religious analogy is a decent one. I'm an atheist and my husband is religious. It works because we each respect each others' beliefs - and also each other as people. Our moral values are often very similar; but mine come from a humanist perspective and his from his religious faith. I didn't really understand before meeting him how deeply held religious faith is - I saw it as a sort of add-on, but to him it's as central to his whole identity as my humanism is to mine.

However, out relationship works because we respect each other. If he thought I was going to burn in hell for eternity, was constantly trying to push me to convert to his religion, or thought I was a bad and immoral person because of my lack of religious belief the relationship wouldn't work. Similarly, if I was poking fun at his beliefs or refusing to accommodate his religious practice her wouldn't want to stay in a relationship with me.

I think this is where it gets difficult for you OP. It sounds like your partner thinks badly of you for your views and assumes that you will behave in a judgemental or harsh way to her trans friends. They are also not giving enough space to your views in the way that they are raising your children to think that 'woman' is a feeling, rather than a matter of biology. How to you think they would react it you asked them to change this?

I think only you can make the decision about whether you can stay in this relationship. It doesn't sound nice to be judged negatively for your beliefs, but if you are able to have honest dialogues about where your beliefs overlap and diverge, I think it can be possible to find a position of mutual respect and care.

I don't have anything useful to add, but Sapphos. That sounds tough

Absolutely no way would I be able to. I am not attracted to women, or men who dress as women, or any one, male or female, who are so aggressive in their viewpoints. No thanks.

@toffeebutterpopcorn

Sorry - is the person in question a girl born woman? It’s so confusing these days.

Yes she is.

MichelleofzeResistance There is a point where it tips in to mens rights activism sadly

This. Couldn't agree more. You never hear about TMAM in the same way, do you?

How would she feel about your kids in mixed sex sports when they are old enough?

If men want to play on the women's rugby team, absolutely fine if that's how they identify women just need to train harder.

One of the worst discussions we had was about blockers and cross sex hormones. She said if our kids identify as trans she will fully support them to start transition before puberty, even if it means travelling abroad.

Thankfully there's no sign of that. And over my dead body.

@Sophoclesthefox

I’m really sorry, Sapphos

I think a marriage can survive some quite fundamental disagreements, but only if there is a respect underpinning the disagreement. I’m not sure that it sounds as though she is being respectful towards your view of the world.

Do you think some couples counselling would help?

I struggle to see how TWAW can respect a (by their definition) bigot, and I can't see how someone GC can respect someone who ignores basic biology.

The one theoretical "middle ground" would seem to me to be an agreement that all trans people deserve as much respect and as many rights as individuals as society can give them, but that there needs to be further debate and discussion before society can move forward to TWAW, end of story, full stop, is enacted into law. OTOH I guess this "middle ground" is pretty much a GC position, whereas TWAW seems to be "why discuss with a bigot?"

I think it completely depends on how big a part of your life that belief is.

My OH and I have polar opposite political views on most issues, we vote entirely oppositely to each other. But neither of us are activists or involved in any movements, although we do get into heated discussions with each other sometimes.

It's just there in the background so it doesn't cause any major problems for us, although I don't think I could say the same if he was a full-on activist.

God it sounds worse with every update. Does she actually know the reality of what she’s talking about? If she can’t or won’t read, has she at least listened to any podcasts or watched discussions in order to better understand the ramifications of these things?

If men want to play on the women's rugby team, absolutely fine if that's how they identify confused women just need to train harder

If she’s this far down the rabbit hole, that she feels she has to deny the physical differences between male and female bodies, and shit on women while she does it, I don’t really think there’s much hope that you can reach a middle ground.

I’m so sorry, sapphos. Has this come to a head because of the public spat that you’d posted about a couple of weeks ago? Home should be a refuge, your marriage should be the source of comfort and safety, not conflict.

@Ninkanink

God it sounds worse with every update. Does she actually know the reality of what she’s talking about? If she can’t or won’t read, has she at least listened to any podcasts or watched discussions in order to better understand the ramifications of these things?

Yes, this is a point. Sappho what about asking her to watch some stuff by Rose of Dawn or Blaire White, who are transitioners but who are not hardened TRAs?

Could you perhaps suggest that you both watch some videos that put forward the other side's view? For instance, Triggernometry have interviewed a range of people about this - eg could you watch their interview with India Willoughby (V TRA) followed by Rose of Dawn (more measured) and then Abigail Shrier (transitioning teens)?

Or could you agree to watch / listen to some podcasts by people she likes, in return for a couple of podcasts by people you like?

Ok that doesn't sound good.
What strikes me though is that you have children together so, whether or not you stay married is really only a part of this. Either way you will still, I assume, have to thrash out how two people on colliding sides of such a fundamental disagreement raise their children, whether that's as a couple or separately. So maybe that's the primary issue and the one to focus on first? Dunno if that makes sense but very best of luck.

I’m so sorry Sapphos. It sounds as though you are a very intellectual person, and she is all emotion. She probably has a huge heart and grand passion and you probably love her for it. I may be way off base, but I sense that you could cope with her having different opinions, if only she could hold them up in a reasoned debate.
The child rearing is very, very hard too. I think if you can’t make some kind of concession for them to be neutral ground with respect to this topic, you’re going to struggle. But I’d it possible you could compromise on that, whilst living with your differences elsewhere?

I'm so sorry you're having to deal with this, Sapphos. The more you say the worse it sounds.

She said if our kids identify as trans she will fully support them to start transition before puberty, even if it means travelling abroad.

Good to hear this isn't a likely scenario but just the threat would wreck things for me. I wouldn't be able to trust her. And then of course if you split up she could use her time with the DC to persuade them of her beliefs. It's a total bugger. Very difficult.

Sorry you find yourself in this predicament. In answer to your question, no. In the same way I couldn’t stay in a relationship with someone who thought that the earth was flat.

Out of interest, if she doesn’t/won’t read anything, where is she getting information on this issue from?

Oh, Sappho. This is hearbreaking. I'm so sorry. Haven't read the whole thread, will do so now.

So sorry to hear this, Sapphos. I don’t know what I’d do. I have in the past gone off people because of their politics. But ending a long-term love — that is a very painful prospect. But would slowly growing apart be worse? Losing respect, affection fading, dislike starting to edge in?

What a horrible situation to be in. I hope you and she can work it out.

I’m so sorry Sapphos. It sounds as though you are a very intellectual person, and she is all emotion. She probably has a huge heart and grand passion and you probably love her for it.

Yes, this exactly. I honestly don't think anything will make her change her views. We live amongst some very toxic TRAs who have caused a lot of problems in the community and alienated many trans allies. She was publicly called a Nazi cis supremacist by these TRAs but even that didn't make her question their ideology. She checked her privilege and promised to learn and grow

This sounds so hard
To me it sounds less like an issue of conflicting views and more like an issue of her disrespect, even tipping into contempt, for you.
It doesn't sound like you are being unreasonable or forcing her into a particular position, it does sound like she's doing that to you.
Maybe some couples counselling about that dynamic, rather than the issue itself, might help. At least for you both to get some clarity around deal breakers.

My DP has differing views to me but we listen to each other respectfully and it doesn't change how our relationship works.

She isn't happy about me being part of a local feminist organisation as she thinks she could lose her job if her work found out.

Is this the root of it? If her workplace is that woke it would be a horrific mental strain on her to start thinking in a GC way. She’d have to start being intentionally deceptive at work, and most people don’t enjoy being duplicitous.

I guess the relationship question depends on how much you value independence of thought. Being an independent thinker has its tradeoffs too, like it can make people more socially awkward or generally arsey. So maybe she’s got other great qualities that mean the conformism is worth putting up with. I couldn’t do it, but then I value independence of thought to a point that is probably not wise or practical.

She accuses me of being anti trans and even thought I would have a problem with her meeting up with a TW friend (I obviously wouldn't) and she looks at me like I've lost my mind a lot of the time.

Sappho - if push came to having no choice in the matter and the relationship were to break down, where, and with whom, would the children reside? Would you be apprehensive about sharing custody or any allegations about your attitudes and beliefs? I'm asking because the above makes it read as if she's wiling to disregard everything else she knows about you in order to subscribe to that perspective and set of misunderstandings.

We live amongst some very toxic TRAs who have caused a lot of problems in the community and alienated many trans allies. She was publicly called a Nazi cis supremacist by these TRAs but even that didn't make her question their ideology. She checked her privilege and promised to learn and grow

That's awful. This kind of behaviour from the TRAs (these specific ones, not generally) sounds cult-like. And like gas-lighting. Why is your partner putting up with being insulted and put down like this?

This essay by C. S. Lewis is quite old-fashioned in style, but it was the first thing that I read that helped me to make sense of how I behaved when I was in a controlling relationship - and the lengths that I would go to to win my partner's (this is not my lovely religious husband from my previous post btw!!) fickle favour and approval:
www.lewissociety.org/innerring/

It sounds like your local activists are behaving like this kind of "inner ring" - and for people like your partner who desperately want to be inside that circle, it can be incredibly hard to step away.

We live amongst some very toxic TRAs who have caused a lot of problems in the community and alienated many trans allies.

You say "live amoungst" but is this basically all Facebook and Instagram comments stuff? It's been lockdown for a long time, how much real life/real world interaction have you and your DW had lately?

Sapphos, how long has DW been like this? It’s a long shot, but if she wasn’t like this until recently, is there any chance she may be going through some sort of MH crisis?

Because I can see why transwomen might support child transitioning, and why teenaged girls might dread growing into women, and why anyone might say TWAW for fear of losing their job.

But I can’t see any reason why a woman would agree to that for her own children. So, could something be going on that’s unsettling her?

It sounds as though you are a very intellectual person, and she is all emotion. She probably has a huge heart and grand passion and you probably love her for it.

so true- i have a tra friend - a top nurse, the most caring person i know- incredible- and she is adamant some women have penises.