Could you stay married to a TRA?

[SapphosRock]

She believes TWAW, their feelings are more important than women’s rights and some lesbians have penises. Get over it. She was on here once upon a time but got permanently banned.
Everything else about the relationship is wonderful. Can we get past this? It seems like a stupid reason to get divorced. Our values used to be fairly similar but she’s got heavily involved in trans activism and I have gone the other way. Sorry for the pity party, just feel quite down about it today. Has anyone else been through similar?

Sorry, that wasn't helpful. Hope you can work something out.

Btw if I recognise your username and remember correctly* I think I’ve had a few heated discussions around the topic with you over the years (not just you but you know what I mean). I’m saddened that your shift in outlook is hitting you where it hurts - it’s difficult enough coming to terms with the reality of how bad things have got, without potentially losing one’s own loved ones and support network on top of it. I wish you well.

(*Or if I’ve misremembered I apologise, please don’t take offence.)

It’s even worse than that though - feminism/women’s rights aside for a moment, one absolutely should not have to fear for one’s job, or that of ones’s partner, because one doesn’t believe in utter ideological bollocks that is diametrically opposed to truth and fact.

I'm so sorry Sappho, what an awful situation. I don't know if I could, but it would depend so much on what else was going on in the relationship and the depth of the impact of differing views.

Sending you huge, huge hugs.

@PopperUppleton

If you were to split up would she consider a sexual relationship with a transwoman, penis and all?

Hope you're ok

That's a very good question.

The major problem with this is not that you disagree with each other, it’s that her stance makes it difficult for you to respect her as a person (and possibly vice versa). It is difficult to recover if you don’t respect one another.

I'm sure there's a GC tweeter who talks openly about her husband believeing TWAW. She mostly jokes about it but I was wondering if it was worth checking out her Twitter feed, only I can't remember who it is Can anyone else?

So sorry SapphosRock that must be grim. I would find it impossible to stay married to a TRA after discussing my concerns. I would feel it indicated a sense of betrayal to my values as well as indicating their lack of critical thinking ability.

If my partner was male it would feel like he didn’t care about the impact to women and was only considering the male viewpoint

For a female partner I’d really struggle to get past them continuing to put men first after they had looked at the issues for women.

My OH was originally in the liberal ‘bekind’ camp and we had some very robust debates as I learnt more but he now understands my concerns and agrees. I was originally a trans ally but as I learnt more about how this ideology harms women I couldn’t continue. When we were at the stage where he didn’t think it was much of a problem, and thought I was taking it too seriously I did wonder if this would break us up but we continued to talk and his views evolved. He was never an activist, we wouldn’t have got to this point if he had been.

So sorry you’re facing this, it’s very sad. I think I would find it very difficult if my partner held TRA views. Is there no reasoning with her at all, can she answer what a woman is without circular logic? Does she genuinely, actually believe the meaning of what she is saying or is she just aggressively “being kind”?

How does she feel about you not believing that humans can change sex and that a woman is an adult human female, full
stop (I’m assuming)? I know you can’t really answer for her but just wondering, how much of a problem is this is for both of you/in each direction.

I did have a short relationship once with a devout Christian, but as an atheist, I could quickly see it would never have worked long term, our fundamental worldviews were just too far apart. I think I’d feel the same about anyone that genuinely believed TWAW (rather than just hadn’t thought too deeply about it and just accepted/parroted the Stonewall mantras and be nice/get over it). Our understanding of reality is just so different I don’t know how we could build a life together.

My partner doesn’t believe TWAactuallyW but also doesn’t understand how much of a problem being forced to pretend you believe can be for women (current partner is male, but does have other good points ) and I find that frustrating enough quite frankly!

No I couldn’t, sorry to hear about your predicament though.
Could you agree not to talk about it?

I don't think I could. I'd struggle to be with someone whose core values and beliefs were in direct conflict with mine. I'm sorry.

swer what a woman is without circular logic? Does she genuinely, actually believe the meaning of what she is saying or is she just aggressively “being kind”?

No she genuinely believes being a woman is a feeling and people are wrongly assigned as male or female at birth. She's teaching this to our kids too.

@Floisme

I'm sure there's a GC tweeter who talks openly about her husband believeing TWAW. She mostly jokes about it but I was wondering if it was worth checking out her Twitter feed, only I can't remember who it is Can anyone else?

Ooh I'd like to follow her if anyone knows!

We do try and laugh when she says I have cis fragility. She really means it though.

God that’s so depressing and must be so difficult for you to cope with.

Wishing you strength. There are a lot of strong women behind you. They cannot silence us all. But I know that doesn’t help your personal situation.

We do try and laugh when she says I have cis fragility. She really means it though.

Ughhh

I'm trying to remember Sapphos!
Can anyone else think who it is?

Hmmmm. It would depend. I think I could tolerate different religious and political views so I might be able to accept different beliefs on gender. BUT I would not be able to accept slurs against GC women or accusations of bigotry and hatred. If someone genuinely believed that humans could change sex but respected that I and others really didn’t, I might be able to get past it if the relationship was otherwise good. But actually, as I write this, I am thinking that it isn’t something I’d relish. At the same time, it’s quite hard to find GC men, 😂

Has she called you a bigoted TERF transphobe yet? 'cos it's coming.
I dunno, in relationships of course we don't all agree on everything. There are many happy marriages where the couples have very different religious beliefs for example and I, as a firm Atheist, could see myself living happily with a believer. BUT it's about respect for each others opinions isn't it? If they literally believed in a physical heaven or that wine in a goblet literally is the blood of christ, then I couldn't respect their commitment to faith (lets call it that).

And also, how dominant this topic is in your lives. I don't think I could be with a priest/vicar/whatever because it would be too big a part of their life that I don't share and have no interest in.

If she just had non GC views, that would be one thing but if she is an actual trans rights activist...I just don't see it working out long term.

@SapphosRock

swer what a woman is without circular logic? Does she genuinely, actually believe the meaning of what she is saying or is she just aggressively “being kind”?

No she genuinely believes being a woman is a feeling and people are wrongly assigned as male or female at birth. She's teaching this to our kids too.

I couldn’t stay with someone who was this sexist

I don’t know what age your children are but could she cheerfully support them to damage their bodies and future sexual function if they decided they were trans and wanted to surgically transition? As a parent that would be a deal breaker

Right I have something I hope will be more useful.

I think there are some issues where you can agree to disagree and you can get passed it and just not really talk about it.

Obviously things like Brexit and Anti-Vaxx - things like that are very divisive, you would have to have a very strong marriage or relationship to be able to rise above it and agree to disagree.

Something that is fundamental, such as religion, something very core to the way you see others, yourself etc would understandably be a reason to separate for irreconcilable differences.

I know I have changed a lot since I came to Mumsnet as a new mum and to this board. My DH wasn't keen on those changes and we have broadly agreed not to discuss Self ID (though he agrees he doesn't see it as a threat or big deal) but there are times that we do, we sort of have to as he is my best friend and it affects me deeply. We should be able to discuss our worries and fears for the future as well as all the hopes. If not then I don't really know if I could keep that all in. Not the big stuff.

It's obviously very personal Sapphos - for me I know I would leave if I found him cross dressing, became a Scientologist, started exploiting vulnerable women via porn or prostitution. There are just some deal breakers in life. I could forgive gambling, heavy drinking and other things I wouldn't consider as serious.

I suppose what I'm saying is it depends on whether your think you can find a middle ground or manage to go on if you can't.

If, in our discussions around Self ID I knew my DH was fully on board with TWAW, I would seek counselling and through that I would find out whether there was any understanding and support for my position or not.

@Pota2

Hmmmm. It would depend. I think I could tolerate different religious and political views so I might be able to accept different beliefs on gender. BUT I would not be able to accept slurs against GC women or accusations of bigotry and hatred. If someone genuinely believed that humans could change sex but respected that I and others really didn’t, I might be able to get past it if the relationship was otherwise good. But actually, as I write this, I am thinking that it isn’t something I’d relish. At the same time, it’s quite hard to find GC men, 😂

With straight men it ain't so hard....

If you have children together then it's even messier

Sappho, I'm so sorry you are wrestling with this!

Can you schedule a 'can we survive this?' conversation? A walk where you talk together about how to manage your relationship with this glaring issue in the middle?

You can each acknowledge how important the other person's beliefs are to them, and that beliefs change with people's experiences.

You can each reassure the other that you wish no ill will to any individual.

You could identify what makes your relationship difficult- her concern that your affiliation will endanger her job, yours that she'd sacrifice your privacy and security on the altar of pretending TWA just the same as W.

What I'd struggle with most, I think, is a loss of respect for someone for believing all this tripe.

The thing is, your views changed. Hers could too. But how long can you wait?

She accuses me of being anti trans and even thought I would have a problem with her meeting up with a TW friend (I obviously wouldn't) and she looks at me like I've lost my mind a lot of the time.

If my spouse acted like this, I would quite seriously want them to go to the doctor. I would think they only heard one word in ten of what I said (hearing issue?) or they were experiencing paranoid delusions.

As you in particular have always struck me as a very compassionate, balanced poster (far more so than I!), I am even more bemused that your spouse could come up with such an absurdity.

I am married to someone who's very devoutly religious. There are things we talk about and things we don't, there's compromise on both sides - but at no point am I forced to agree with his views. I do #bekind but I would not lie in church or anything.

Could I be married to a raving Maggie loving Tory? Someone who supports in a party who gives money to the rich and takes from the poor and disadvantaged. Nope.

TRA fall into the latter category for me. It's no longer simply a benign belief that makes the believer happy.