Could you stay married to a TRA?

[SapphosRock]

She believes TWAW, their feelings are more important than women’s rights and some lesbians have penises. Get over it. She was on here once upon a time but got permanently banned.
Everything else about the relationship is wonderful. Can we get past this? It seems like a stupid reason to get divorced. Our values used to be fairly similar but she’s got heavily involved in trans activism and I have gone the other way. Sorry for the pity party, just feel quite down about it today. Has anyone else been through similar?

You say "live amoungst" but is this basically all Facebook and Instagram comments stuff? It's been lockdown for a long time, how much real life/real world interaction have you and your DW had lately?

Oh no this is all real life stuff. I've made a couple of threads about some of the things they've been up to.

They have overtaken the women's support service for survivors of sexual violence despite there being a specialist trans service.

They have tried to ruin a small, vegan cafe and the owner's reputation as the owner wouldn't support one of them having top surgery (a double mastectomy)

They're the ones responsible for the local maternity unit changing literature to 'chest feeding' and 'pregnant people' etc.

Pre-lockdown they have violently protested WPUK meetings.

There are many, many more examples. They're always up to mischief.

I'm pretty sure that Sappho has seen all the material, all the various GC videos, and shared with her wife any her wife may pay attention to.

The reality is, that if as a gay couple you were active in the LGB scene in your area, if that was your friendship circle and your social conscience, and that scene is captured then it's very hard to reject all of that and disagree with the prevailing view.

It's not unlike someone who's joined Jehovah's Witnesses after fleeing a toxic upbringing. When you've been adopted into that community, supported and sheltered there, at first you just accept what they say. As time goes on, ever greater demands are made but by then you've got sunken costs- they must be right, it must be ok, these are my people.

Still the purity spiral is a powerful force- the group she is part of is very likely to devour itself. It may not be much longer, despite how it appears.

Cross post, Sappho, sorry.

What’s the cost/loss to her if she changes her belief? What is she gaining by her current belief?

People can believe all sorts of stuff that isn’t logical or factual if the alternative is worse. People consciously ignore stuff if it’s better or less bad than acknowledging it or challenging it. Unless they can’t.

Cognitive dissonance. It’s a horror. www.simplypsychology.org/cognitive-dissonance.html

I’m really sorry for your predicament OP.

My DH and I had some issues around this topic when I became aware of what was happening, he was all ‘just be kind’. He accused me of being confused, bigoted and easily led by the evil internet right wing. He didn’t believe what was happening because it sounded too mad 😂

I had a real struggle dealing with it, because we have always been on the same left wing page with regard to politics, and talk politics a lot as well. The main problem that I had was the fact that he had so little respect for me that he would think I was being stupid and narrow minded. Also the fact that he couldn’t see the obvious conflict of interests made me disrespect him as well, how could he believe in something so detrimental to women’s rights. It really had a major effect on the way I felt about him.

I am happy to say that eventually, after loads of really bad rows, that he now gets where I’m coming from, and we can discuss it sensibly. He still thinks I am over invested, which may be true, but he does see the issues. If he hadn’t, I honestly think it may have been a dealbreaker.

I hope that you can find a way forward. I really believe that this ideology will come unstuck soon and the harms will be exposed, maybe then she will see where you are coming from. It is hard x

I view this as an addiction. The high that she is getting from the affirmation of her beliefs ( www.vaishalipatelpsychotherapy.com/when-affirmation-from-others-becomes-an-addiction/ ) is so powerful you can't compete. Validation feels good.

And yes, I think it steadily requires more and more to get the same warm buzz. As with any addiction, you do not come first.
There's even a chance she may decide she is NB or trans, as this is the next escalation.
You can try to ignore, or try and lower your opposition which might be feeding and fuelling her. Sometimes arguing reinforces beliefs as you're continually made to justify them.

It's a tough situation.

@SapphosRock

Thanks all for the advice.

She accuses me of being anti trans and even thought I would have a problem with her meeting up with a TW friend (I obviously wouldn't) and she looks at me like I've lost my mind a lot of the time.

She isn't happy about me being part of a local feminist organisation as she thinks she could lose her job if her work found out. The irony of women being bullied out of their jobs for supporting women's rights is completely lost on her.

Solidarity Sappho. The thing that stands out to me there is "she thinks she could lose her job if her work found out" She's afraid. Not everyone is strong enough to go against social tides. That's how totalitarian regimes always gain traction and momentum. Sheep.

I could be patient, on a superficial level, "be kind" and "TWAW" seem to make sense and be harmless, but ultimately I could never stay in a romantic relationship with someone that couldn't 'see' the bigger picture and be reasoned round. I couldn't respect them intellectually. She sounds a bit challenged in that department.... sorry!

I could totally be in a relationship with a well balanced Trans man or trans woman. I could even accept someone who didn't care or understood but was too weak or scared to resist. I could never be romantically involved with an idealogue or someone lacking such a basic grasp of reality though.

Funny that she thinks your beliefs are so transphobic yet hasn't dumped you. That's not really showing integrity if she truly believes what she says.

Sorry if that sounds too harsh.

I've read the whole thread now. This sounds immensely hard. I hope you can find a way through this that has a good outcome for you and your children.

I was trying to think of ways to bridge the gaps and overcome the issues, up until I read your last post.

I had been thinking it was just disagreements on the issues, but it sounds like she has taken part in some really disturbing actions?

Given all of the things she's been involved with, I'd find it very hard, I'm afraid, to maintain respect for someone who intimidated women or bullied people. I sincerely hope she doesn't and hasn't done this to you, Sapphos.

Here is what I was planning to say before I read your last post:

Could you have a discussion on the subject without mentioning the subject? Can you discuss your feelings without getting drawn into arguments or any of the issues? Can you say how it makes you feel to have her look at you like that or call you 'cis' or whatever? Just to kind of try to lay some groundwork so that you defuse the situation a little, was my thinking. To let her see how you are feeling and agree to maintain respect and good intentions.

However if she has actually been violent, abusive or threatening, I don't know if I would advise that, at all.

Is there no middle ground you can find at all? My fiancée is pro trans rights, not sure I would describe her as a TRA, but she thinks that even if she doesn’t understand the way someone behaves she should “be kind” and “respectful” of their identity. We’ve had a few heated discussions, but we’ve managed to find some common ground eventually where we both agree that there is no female penis, there are key differences between trans women and biological women and that there should be more to “becoming” a woman legally than just saying “I feel like a woman”. This is after many many heated discussions and arguments though where I think she realised that there are consequences to just blindly accepting someone’s chosen identity and that a lot of what TRAs preach makes no sense.

Does your wife think that biological sex doesn’t exist? How has she come to the conclusion there can be female penises? That’s illogical. Does she think gender identity erases sex? I think it’s important to try and understand how she’s formed these views and discuss and debate that, maybe she can see where you’re coming from and vice versa.

@picklemewalnuts

I'm pretty sure that Sappho has seen all the material, all the various GC videos, and shared with her wife any her wife may pay attention to.

The reality is, that if as a gay couple you were active in the LGB scene in your area, if that was your friendship circle and your social conscience, and that scene is captured then it's very hard to reject all of that and disagree with the prevailing view.

It's not unlike someone who's joined Jehovah's Witnesses after fleeing a toxic upbringing. When you've been adopted into that community, supported and sheltered there, at first you just accept what they say. As time goes on, ever greater demands are made but by then you've got sunken costs- they must be right, it must be ok, these are my people.

Still the purity spiral is a powerful force- the group she is part of is very likely to devour itself. It may not be much longer, despite how it appears.

This is very true! The evolution of trans activism is like the tale of the boiling frog.

if you put a frog in a pot of boiling water it will instantly leap out. But if you put it in a pot filled with pleasantly tepid water and gradually heat it, the frog will remain in the water until it boils to death.

So sorry to hear this Sapphos. I’ve always had loans of respect for you as a poster. You have never gone with majority opinion, but argue with intelligence and humanity. Really sad that this issue has now harmed your home life.

I think as a Woman married to a man, it probably isn’t as bad. If DH thought TWAW, well, he’s just a clueless male and this is never going to affect him.

But as a woman married to a woman, the misogyny and homophobia inherent in the TRA cause just strikes right at the heart of your relationship. I don’t think there’s any coming back from that.

'I view this as an addiction. The high that she is getting from the affirmation of her beliefs ( click here ) is so powerful you can't compete. Validation feels good.'.

That's a really interesting perspective MondayYoghurt. I hadn't thought of it in terms of reward systems but it really makes sense.

I’d maybe ask her what she wants from you on this, given that you’re not about to sing from her hymn sheet and suddenly start believing. Ultimately, does she respect your beliefs. Do you respect hers (FWIW, I find some of what you’ve described she believes/her associates have done ‘not worthy of respect’, as they say - if she’s genuinely in agreement with the bullying and harrassment of women then how can you respect that?). Either way - you are not just two people in a relationship are you, you’re co-parents, so you have to come to an agreement about how you raise your children - it’s astonishing that she said she would take them abroad to transition if they wanted (presumably because that ‘treatment’ would be illegal in the U.K?) without seemingly any thought of actually it would be the two of you agreeing together how to handle that situation should it arise, not just her say so alone. Does she not realise that? Sorry I’m just really frustrated for you.

So sorry that you’re faced with this.

ArabellaScott thank you and she honestly isn't abusive in the slightest. In every other respect she's the kindest, most caring partner.

We had a little chat tonight and agreed to try counselling.

Cwenthryth I've been very taken aback from some of the things she's come out with.

For example she would consider herself to be a liberal intersectional feminist and would say she supports women's rights.

When we've talked about women's meetings being violently protested by TRAs, suddenly the women are 'asking for it' because they're not being inclusive. It's so frustrating.

Good, I'm glad to hear it.

Counseling sounds like a positive step. Wishing you all the best with it. You have plenty of support here if you need it.

talkingdeadscot 💐

I hope counselling goes well Sappho

Tricky question.

It should be possible IF both sides treat the other's belief/no belief with respect. I'd want to be able to have a calm discussion. A discussion out of genuine interest how the person that you like has come to such a different conclusion to you. The line with kids has to be some people think A, some people think B. I think A because...

From what I've seen, the typical TRA position is a very long way from that place. I think I would not want to be with someone who didn't trust me to be well informed and in good faith even where we disagreed; who would make assumptions about me rather than ask questions.

I'm sorry Sapphos. I really hope you can get a good conversation going.

I hope you find the right therapist because a lot of them out there are very much in the TWAW camp.

I can see how you would be taken aback by her supporting actual violence against women, real-life violence committed by TRAs, I think you are being too kind by just saying ‘taken aback’!!! Charitably I’m hoping perhaps she doesn’t fully hear what she is saying?

I hope your couples therapy helps you understand each other (and helps her hear what she is actually saying!)

@SapphosRock

ArabellaScott thank you and she honestly isn't abusive in the slightest. In every other respect she's the kindest, most caring partner.

We had a little chat tonight and agreed to try counselling.

Given where you live be very careful in selecting a counsellor. Whilst they shouldn’t impose their views this seems to be the ideology that ‘transcends’ those principles.

I hope you are able to find a way through this, aside from sharing TRA views she sounds lovely and it sounds like your strengths would normally be complementary.

I've also seen your views evolve over time Sapphos. You used to be more or less where she is now, so it's you that's changed iyswim.

I also assume you live in Brighton from your post. I have friends down there. They are mainly male but all are TWAW. In that area and as a lesbian couple and if you have friendship groups who are gay/ lesbian / bi then I think from what I've heard that your views would mean social death. Being kind of cast out of the, how can I put it. The reason that so many people are in Brighton, because it's got such a massive gay community. I mean that's a huge deal.

I'd give it some time. The tide is turning a bit and maybe it will come to a place where both trans people can live more openly/ with less fear and more understanding, and sex based stuff can also exist.

The most vocal TWAW person I know, who is actively trying to get sex turned to gender everywhere (you can't ask sex!) is a bisexual woman. She's lovely. I just don't understand it at all.

I struggle to see how couples counselling will work to help this tbh.

I would ask her to lay off with the kids and you will as well. As you don't agree, it's a really divisive subject in your marriage, and they will get confused and sense/ see that you are not happy with each other about it.

I hope the counselling goes well, Sappho. You will be in my thoughts.

Thanks NiceGerbil. Yes there's no escaping it where we live but it's all happened very recently. Even 5 years ago the one women's bar actually had women in it. Now it has a very different vibe with a big sign 'NO TERFS' on the door.