What do you say to women who accept TWAW?

[Shizuku]

The GC claim is that accepting TWAW has detrimental effects on the lives of women who aren't trans.

So, how do you explain to the millions of women who accept TWAW that their lives have been negatively affected by that acceptance, given that as far as they can see, nothing bad happened and their lives just carried on as normal?

I dont explain anything unless I am asked.

@HarebrightCedarmoon

There is a transwoman on a course I'm doing now, using she and clearly referring to herself as female. Are people suggesting I start referring to her as male and using "he"? And start saying things like "transwomen aren't women".

As I think that would be incredibly offensive and rude of me, personally.

How would doing that be relevant to the course?

@HarebrightCedarmoon not a single person here responding is telling other women what they must do. You will have your own beliefs and rightly so.

Noone actually believes TWAW, least of all TRA. If they did they would show as much care for them as they do women ie none.

I don't. In the same way that I don't go around telling Christians that their god isn't real....
Same.
I talk to people about it when they start telling me facts about myself, like that I have a female gender identity and that there is no reason I should be concerned about sharing space with people with penises.
I tend not to bother with this on the Internet though as it turns into an academic "gotcha!" debate and my life is too short.

@HarebrightCedarmoon

There is a transwoman on a course I'm doing now, using she and clearly referring to herself as female. Are people suggesting I start referring to her as male and using "he"? And start saying things like "transwomen aren't women".

As I think that would be incredibly offensive and rude of me, personally.

Well, that sort of depends.

The argument against TWAW is not one aimed at individual people. It is a catch all description - just as The GC is in the OP!

Does the transwoman on your course demand you say "and yes you are female" every time you say her name? Or does she just as to be referred to as she/female sounding name.

Does she respect any woman's request not to follow her into a single sex space? Is she as respectful of you as she is asking you to be respectful of her?

Can you see that it is an individual issue, on a day to day basis.

But politically it is quite different.

@CassandraCursed

Self confessed 'be kind' advocate in the past here. Within months of eachother I fought with someone on social media who was making dismissive noises about a two spirit people (urging them to be kind) and also shared an article of how trans athletes threatened women's sports. This was before I realised that most people who think twaw wouldn't accept me defending the concept of trans whilst wanting to protect women's sports I imagine most people who say twaw think it's a costless kindness like I did. Now I know that women have been abused, raped had their dignity and privacy eroded, been threatened, sacked and scolded for believing a basic biological fact most five year olds understand I'm less willing to extend kindness. Certainly not at the cost for women. That's on you and your like, who push at boundaries and accept no compromise. Which I know is very sad because some people are just living their life and you've hijacked their cause

You're not convincing anyone.

By pushing for males in women's sports, refuges and prisons you've revealed yourself as unreasonable and out of touch with reality.

Nice one.

Same. It was Munroe Bergdorf's demand that women don't "centre their reproductive systems" at the Women's March that started to chip away at that.

Then the more I looked, the more I realised that TRAs have very little interest in the wellbeing of the trans people (the not wanting research into PBs, desistance and the not wanting Tavistock to be investigated despite obvious poor practice demonstrated that). Instead it's about bullying women. Once you see it, you can't unsee it.

How would doing that be relevant to the course?

But in not calling the issue out I'm accepting a TWAW by default. So I'm a woman accepting TWAW, and I wondered what people would say, which is the subject of the thread.

I also consider being compelled to share single sex spaces with two sexes to be enforced harassment.

I don't want to because it has this effect on me:

The unwanted behaviour must have the purpose or effect of violating your dignity, or creating a degrading, humiliating, hostile, intimidating or offensive environment for you.

https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/advice-and-guidance/what-harassment-and-victimisation

YY, same here. This angle needs to be considered more, IMO.

@HarebrightCedarmoon most posters here wouldn’t be rude and are respectful of individuals. They just don’t believe that trans women are actually women. Many trans women agree with this point of view.

Even if a man could change his body and DNA to become a woman physically, he won’t be able to undo the effects of socialisation as a male child/young adult. Girls are disadvantaged due to socialisation so will need specific support to overcome this which isn’t applicable to trans women, who again have their own issues.

We should be able to join forces when issues overlap and accept each other’s differences by stepping back at other times.

But in not calling the issue out I'm accepting a TWAW by default.

Not really. I don't believe TWAW but I wouldn't point it out unless there is a pressing need to do so.

*There is a transwoman on a course I'm doing now, using she and clearly referring to herself as female. Are people suggesting I start referring to her as male and using "he"? And start saying things like "transwomen aren't women".

As I think that would be incredibly offensive and rude of me, personally.*

Depends on the course. If it has nothing to do with biological sex differences between men and women, then this person's sex is of no relevance and you treat them with the respect they deserve.

It is when the biological sex differences between men and women matter, like healthcare, single sex facilities, prisons and sports, that the mantra should be 'transwomen are transwomen, women are women and gender is not sex'.

I don’t think millions of women have given it a second thought actually. Mainly because they go through their whole lives never meeting a trans man or woman. I used to be in the “be kind” camp which fits in with my general liberal stance on other issues. What changed for me was the conversation on sport... I read about the trans cyclist winning everything ( can’t remember her name now). When I went and looked at her social media she seemed obnoxious to me - argumentative and unwilling to consider she had any kind of advantage. Once you know about trans boxers and other athletes it’s really hard to maintain that women aren’t being unfairly penalised. That was the starting point of changing my own stance. People are vaguely supportive because it’s cool to be woke but I doubt many have confronted the issues in their lives on any meaningful level.

@persistentwoman - thanks for sharing the Jane Clare Jones twitter thread - love that she calls a spade a spade! I came to gender critical through feminism but also the narrative of opposing individualism and an awareness of class based politics which STILL COUNTS, despite some TRAs trying to put us in a group with far rightists. Are there really millions of women who think TWs are actual biological women? I have found that talking about sports and safeguarding is the best way in to encourage discussion when people are uncertain exactly where they stand.

“Are people suggesting I start referring to her as male and using "he"? And start saying things like "transwomen aren't women"

Why are people so inclined to go to the extreme opposite position? What happened to nuanced debate? Of course you don’t say anything... you use the name they want and be professional. It doesn’t need a debate.

Are there really millions of women who think TWs are actual biological women?

I highly doubt it.

@Scepticaltank

So how do you explain to millions of women

I don't explain anything to millions of women. There are no situations in my life where I explain anything to millions of women.

I await your next thread.

Yep, me too.

Not read the whole thread yet but this is weird already.

About the same as I do to the millions of women who've accepted Jesus as their lord and saviour?

ie. we don't share the belief, but I won't bring it into the conversation if they don't.

@Nitpickpicnic

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

I am guessing the "people who menstruate" he is referencing are transmen who are of course biologically female.

I say that TWAW is damaging to many people and the first people to suffer are trans people, it silences those like Debbie Hayton who has as much right to be heard as anyone else.

Debbie Hayton has not being silenced but has been afforded multiple platforms by feminists, LGB groups, unions and mainstream media.

recent thread: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4211107-Dr-Debbie-Hayton-interview

The

@HarebrightCedarmoon

There is a transwoman on a course I'm doing now, using she and clearly referring to herself as female. Are people suggesting I start referring to her as male and using "he"? And start saying things like "transwomen aren't women".

As I think that would be incredibly offensive and rude of me, personally.

Has anyone here suggested you do that?

Assuming you mean 'believe' rather than 'accept', I would say that it's great for them that their lives haven't been negatively impacted but that I would hope they can see beyond their own privilege to understand that not everyone has the same life experience.

And that just because someone believes something to be beneficial, it's not always beneficial to everyone and perhaps if someone is telling you they have been affected negatively by something that hasn't affected your life at all, you should listen to what they have to say instead of telling them they are wrong because your life is just fine, thank you very much.

I dunno, something like that maybe.

@HarebrightCedarmoon

How would doing that be relevant to the course?

But in not calling the issue out I'm accepting a TWAW by default. So I'm a woman accepting TWAW, and I wondered what people would say, which is the subject of the thread.

If there were a Muslim person on the course, would you tell them that you don’t believe in Islamic laws? No you wouldn’t.