What do you say to women who accept TWAW?

[Shizuku]

The GC claim is that accepting TWAW has detrimental effects on the lives of women who aren't trans.

So, how do you explain to the millions of women who accept TWAW that their lives have been negatively affected by that acceptance, given that as far as they can see, nothing bad happened and their lives just carried on as normal?

What do you say to women who accept TWAW

If a woman said that to me I would simply ask her who she meant by 'TW'.

@HarebrightCedarmoon

How would doing that be relevant to the course?

But in not calling the issue out I'm accepting a TWAW by default. So I'm a woman accepting TWAW, and I wondered what people would say, which is the subject of the thread.

I don't think you are accepting anything by default. There is a time and a place for everything.

This is what Maya's case was about, the assumption that because she spoke about sex mattering she would "call out" individual's at work abusively.

There is a lot of effort being made to tie the two things together, if you think sex matters, and it does in law already, you are automatically expected to be abusive.

It is untrue.

@HarebrightCedarmoon

How would doing that be relevant to the course?

But in not calling the issue out I'm accepting a TWAW by default. So I'm a woman accepting TWAW, and I wondered what people would say, which is the subject of the thread.

No more than calling a priest "Father Bob" would mean you accept the existence of a Christian God.

To be honest I don’t really think it’s a subject that comes up very often unless you have someone with an agenda. If someone has an agenda I would avoid the topic as there is little point in discussing it. Where it does come up with someone who doesn’t have an agenda (recently talking about elections it has come up) I explain my thoughts on the subject and how I would like to support trans women while maintaining the integrity of our existing language and sex based rights. I’m open to their thoughts too and maybe we can help each other understand a bit more on the topic.

@Shizuku

The GC claim is that accepting TWAW has detrimental effects on the lives of women who aren't trans.

So, how do you explain to the millions of women who accept TWAW that their lives have been negatively affected by that acceptance, given that as far as they can see, nothing bad happened and their lives just carried on as normal?

Funny you should ask. I used to do a lot of refugee campaigning, and a real obstacle was indifference from the majority. Cuts to legal aid / grossly unfair laws / restrictions on access to the courts / indefinite detention - often met with that exact response - I'm alright Jack, my life hasn't been affected, nothing bad's happening and my life's carrying on as normal.

If a proposed change "only" negatively affects refugees, or women prisoners, or criminal defendants, then who cares, right?

It's how shit law gets made.

@R0wantrees

What do you say to women who accept TWAW

If a woman said that to me I would simply ask her who she meant by 'TW'.

Simple, but perfect!

@HarebrightCedarmoon

How would doing that be relevant to the course?

But in not calling the issue out I'm accepting a TWAW by default. So I'm a woman accepting TWAW, and I wondered what people would say, which is the subject of the thread.

How do you know they are a trans woman?

Is the OP coming back or is this post just one of the usual plop and disappear?

I’m in a fb group where any remotely GC comment is jumped on.

Without any hint of irony, there was a recent discussion about how women could feel safer in nightclubs, and the overwhelming response was “a safe single sex area they they could go to if being harassed”.

These women get it. They just have a lot of cognitive dissonance.

@334bu

Is the OP coming back or is this post just one of the usual plop and disappear?

The latter I’m sure, but it’s generated an interesting thread and an opportunity to share different thoughts and present the variety of concerns that an unexamined acceptance of the catechism “TWAW” raises, so a helpful and valued contribution by the OP anyway.

So, how do you explain to the millions of women who accept TWAW that their lives have been negatively affected by that acceptance, given that as far as they can see, nothing bad happened and their lives just carried on as normal?

I was previously in the TWAW camp, and then I researched the issue and realised all the problems this causes. I would assume that those who have convinced themselves that TWAW are in the same position that I used to be in. The fact that the consequences have not affected those women personally yet does not mean that there are no consequences - in fact, I would suggest it probably suggests that the holder of that belief lives a privileged life where they don't have to worry about single sex prisons and women's shelters.

I'd tell them I'm glad nothing detrimental has happened to them.

I'm thinking of those who have/will be impacted when I state I don't believe TWAW.

Plus knowing my daughter was gestated in and then entered this world via my uniquely female body I try not to keep a straight face when someone tells me otherwise.

I'm very interested to know more about this f "millions" of women you refer to. And does this million include purely biological or other types of women?

How do you know they are a trans woman?

Yes I am also interested in this.

@HarebrightCedarmoon

How would doing that be relevant to the course?

But in not calling the issue out I'm accepting a TWAW by default. So I'm a woman accepting TWAW, and I wondered what people would say, which is the subject of the thread.

I am afraid I cannot grasp your logic.

On a daily basis (well, outside lockdown, anyway) I encounter people with different philosophies to me.

I'm sure multiple people on your course hold opposing political, philosophical or religious beliefs, to you. Did you feel you were tacitly agreeing with them if you didn't make a point of randomly stating your disagreement?

How does it work out for you? I'm guiltily fascinated. Surely you don't, or you would have been asked to leave the course.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

But in not calling the issue out I'm accepting a TWAW by default.

Not really. I don't believe TWAW but I wouldn't point it out unless there is a pressing need to do so.

Absolutely this.

@tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz

I'd tell them I'm glad nothing detrimental has happened to them.

I'm thinking of those who have/will be impacted when I state I don't believe TWAW.

Plus knowing my daughter was gestated in and then entered this world via my uniquely female body I try not to keep a straight face when someone tells me otherwise.

I'm very interested to know more about this f "millions" of women you refer to. And does this million include purely biological or other types of women?

Doh

Try to keep a straight face obv.

I would ask them what they think a woman actually is and how a male born person could identify as something he has never been or known.
I would ask them why they are so quick to sell their rights down the river for biological men.

I don't think ANYONE believes TWAW or that it is possible for people to change sex. Anyone with a rudimentary understanding of biology at primary level knows sex is binary , immutable and unchangeable regardless of presentation or body modification. I don't believe TW themselves think they are actual women.

I DO think TW should be treated with respect and referred to as their chosen gender, but I think they need third spaces of their own and when it comes to matters of life where biology is important (prisons, health care), then they need to recognise that natal born women have seperate rights.
Ultimately, TW are not women. They are TW, And that's fine - but don't expect me to buy into an impossible fiction. Especially when it erodes my rights.

I don't understanding the reasoning that because not every woman thinks the same way, the rationale argument and discourse of others is not important or even true. Women are not a hive mind. I disagree with many of my sisters, on many occasions, about many things. Oddly, it is sometimes said to be one of the characteristics of so called femaleness that we tend to discuss things in a way inclusive of other views. Of course, not inherent, the only thing inherent to femaleness is the producing of large rather than small gametes.

I would tell them that I disagree with their beliefs and that, if they're interested in finding out more, to visit Feminist Chat on Mumsnet as it's one of the very few public facing platforms where intelligent discussion is possible.

As I think that would be incredibly offensive and rude of me, personally... But in not calling the issue out I'm accepting a TWAW by default

I'm so interested in this logic. Do you say every offensive and rude thing that comes into your head if you believe it to be true?

That is not how most people work. Most people try not to be rude to other people. If we have thoughts that we think another person might not want to hear, we generally don't say them. Politeness doesn't indicate "acceptance" that untrue things are true.

What would you say to them about the way their lives have been negatively impacted? Because they don't seem to have noticed.

Well, I haven't noticed any real issues around Ebola in my own life, but my awareness was raised by a news piece a few years ago!

I DO think TW should be treated with respect and referred to as their chosen gender, but I think they need third spaces of their own and when it comes to matters of life where biology is important (prisons, health care), then they need to recognise that natal born women have seperate rights.
Ultimately, TW are not women. They are TW, And that's fine - but don't expect me to buy into an impossible fiction. Especially when it erodes my rights.

Completely agree with this.

Happy to respect TW and their rights as individuals but let's not pretend there is no difference.

What would you say to them about the way their lives have been negatively impacted? Because they don't seem to have noticed.

I'd ask those women if them doing alright for themselves makes them incapable of sympathising with other women in less fortunate situations, like the very vulnerable women in the female prison estate who are being housed with convicted rapists and sex offenders.

What would you say to them about the way their lives have been negatively impacted? Because they don't seem to have noticed.

This is a very silly question. I'd talk to them about the women whose lives HAVE been negatively impacted.

(There seems to be a good bit of "assuming women are all one homogeneous group mind" happening in this thread. Also some "women don't have inner lives" that conflates what women say with what women think. These thought patterns are common among misogynists.)