What do you say to women who accept TWAW?

[Shizuku]

The GC claim is that accepting TWAW has detrimental effects on the lives of women who aren't trans.

So, how do you explain to the millions of women who accept TWAW that their lives have been negatively affected by that acceptance, given that as far as they can see, nothing bad happened and their lives just carried on as normal?

I don't. In the same way that I don't go around telling Christians that their god isn't real....

^^same everyone's entitled to their incorrect opinions

They can believe and chant gender mantras as much as they like. What they are not at liberty to do is force the removal of my rights and the rights of millions of other women for their dogma.

Hounding women's groups and harassing women to force them to include males into single-sex spaces is the behaviour of zealots. They can get off their lazy arses and put in the time, effort and money to set up separate shared spaces with males if they want, and leave the rest of us to maintain our single-sex spaces and services.

I’m fine with TWAW. I’m one of those millions. I accept trans women as women in the gender sense of the word. I’ve even stopped defining myself as a woman (in the gender sense of the word) because I accept that a TW’s experience of her own gender is valid and I, not sharing that experience of knowing myself to be a “woman” by anything other than biology, am actually agender.

What I’m not fine with is conflating sex and gender, because it’s taking provisions made for people because of challenges specific to their sex and handing it to people who don’t have those challenges because of their gender identity, which is a different thing.

So I’d like the people who think that TW, being women by gender, need the separate toilets, sports, political representation, initiatives, spaces and laws that were created for the female sex, to explain why.

Explain, from first principles and ignoring what ideas about men and women may exist today for historic reasons based on sex, what are the practical, observable differences - as in not just in how a person may see themselves but in how they are seen and exist physically and socially in the world - that exist between a male-sex man and a male-sex woman, but not between a male-sex woman and a female-sex woman, such that we do not need any sex-specific provisions but we do need gender-specific ones?

Because either sex doesn’t matter at all, in which case we need to ditch these historic relics of oppression by sex and identity which, if any, new ones are needed based on gender, or it does matter and we need to acknowledge that females exist and that women by gender who happen to be male are not being invalidated, judged or attacked if they excluded from female-sex spaces and provision.

So, to the original question:

To people who believe TWAW but accept this is not the same as sex and females still need single sex rights and support I say, hell yeah, crack on.

To people who believe TWAW and gender identity should replace any sex-based provision I put the question above and wait for the clarification.

And to people who believe TWAW, gender identity should replace any sex-based provision and the question above doesn’t matter because replacing sex with gender identity has not so far caused them personally any problems, I say...

Lucky you
But it has caused problems for some people
And the more single-sex provision is lost the more people it will cause problems for
And don’t people have a right define themselves and speak of their common experiences based on their sex as well as their gender?
And we don’t put rules, protections and protected opportunities in place for the usual case where people are reasonable and things go ok, because reasonable people and ok outcomes don’t need them. We put them in place for the bad times and the hard decisions, where one person’s power can hurt or oppress another’s. I’m alright jack is not a reason to get rid of someone else’s rights.

Should women who do not understand complex medical language be denied potentially life saving treatment because transwomen object to the word " women" being used to refer to something which only affects members of the female sex?

how do you explain to the millions of women who accept TWAW that their lives have been negatively affected by that acceptance, given that as far as they can see, nothing bad happened and their lives just carried on as normal?

I'd say ''this is neoliberalism in a nutshell, but it isnt Feminism.''

What do you say to women who accept TWAW?

Nothing unless they’ve asked me something. Then my answer will be based around what they asked.

Eg: “yes, I do, it’s quarter past 2.”

As the discussion inevitably focuses on the relative 'whataboutery' of public toilets, I would ask them if they acknowledge the rape of vulnerable women in the women's estate by sex offenders who now identify as women (which is happening - see the evidence of the recent MOJ court case) and why these women do not deserve to be protected. It's nothing less than state sanctioned puntative rape.

Can I ask (I don't usually venture onto these threads) - is TW violence against bio women common?

Only as I see that is quite a big part of many people's arguments here - eg risk of rape or assault if TW are allowed into female single sex spaces like changing rooms etc.

I have to admit that side of things hasn't really crossed my mind with regards to the TWAW argument as I'd have thought that would be fairly unlikely, unless the chance to assault women is why someone is trying to appear as a TW?

It's a small proportion of men who attack women, and as such an even smaller proportion of trans women who would have that mindset, surely?

I actually don't know anyone in my daily life who honestly believes that TWAW.

So it has never come up.

I would say “do you post as Shizuku on Mumsnet? No? That’s good, that means we can have a proper discussion about it rather than you just shouting your opinion at me and then storming off and not answering questions before picking a new fight.”

You remind me of the Bad Tempered Ladybird.

Can I ask (I don't usually venture onto these threads) - is TW violence against bio women common?

Patterns and prevalence of male violence against women and children appear unaffected by whether male perpetrators identify as trans or not.

The specific patterns of abuse towards wives/girlfriends and children are described:

www.transwidowsvoices.org/
childrenoftransitioners.org/

I don’t bother, you can’t really reason with a bigot. I do find it very sad though that there are so many women who will fall over themselves to prioritise men even where it means throwing their own sex under the bus.

@NotBadConsidering

I would say “do you post as Shizuku on Mumsnet? No? That’s good, that means we can have a proper discussion about it rather than you just shouting your opinion at me and then storming off and not answering questions before picking a new fight.”

You remind me of the Bad Tempered Ladybird.

This is an outstanding post, possibly the most important on this thread.

@Bibidy

Can I ask (I don't usually venture onto these threads) - is TW violence against bio women common?

Only as I see that is quite a big part of many people's arguments here - eg risk of rape or assault if TW are allowed into female single sex spaces like changing rooms etc.

I have to admit that side of things hasn't really crossed my mind with regards to the TWAW argument as I'd have thought that would be fairly unlikely, unless the chance to assault women is why someone is trying to appear as a TW?

It's a small proportion of men who attack women, and as such an even smaller proportion of trans women who would have that mindset, surely?

Their crimes are recorded as having been carried out by women, and they are often placed in womens prisons.

Fair Play carried out an FOI request and the results are awful. Four times as many men in prison than outside of it say they are transgender.
Half of all transgender prisoners are sex offenders or dangerous category A inmates. The Ministry of Justice (MoJ) have confirmed by Freedom of Information requests that 60 of the 125 transgender prisoners known to be in prison in England and Wales are convicted sex offenders.
fairplayforwomen.com/transgender-prisoners/

It's a small proportion of men who attack women, and as such an even smaller proportion of trans women who would have that mindset, surely?

Of course not all transwomen, like any other males, present a threat to women , however there is no evidence that they are less likely to be a threat than other males. Given that men are excluded from single sex spaces for women because some of them may be dangerous, why would you not also exclude transwomen, as some of them are just as likely to be dangerous as any other member of the male sex.

I’m fine with TWAW. I’m one of those millions. I accept trans women as women in the gender sense of the word. I’ve even stopped defining myself as a woman (in the gender sense of the word) because I accept that a TW’s experience of her own gender is valid and I, not sharing that experience of knowing myself to be a “woman” by anything other than biology, am actually agender.

What I’m not fine with is conflating sex and gender, because it’s taking provisions made for people because of challenges specific to their sex and handing it to people who don’t have those challenges because of their gender identity, which is a different thing

'Woman' is not a gender identity, its a sex based term for human beings who are female and adults.

@Bibidy

Can I ask (I don't usually venture onto these threads) - is TW violence against bio women common?

Only as I see that is quite a big part of many people's arguments here - eg risk of rape or assault if TW are allowed into female single sex spaces like changing rooms etc.

I have to admit that side of things hasn't really crossed my mind with regards to the TWAW argument as I'd have thought that would be fairly unlikely, unless the chance to assault women is why someone is trying to appear as a TW?

It's a small proportion of men who attack women, and as such an even smaller proportion of trans women who would have that mindset, surely?

Male violence is more common than is acceptable - against men and women. Transwomen are male, the vast majority retain their male sex organs

Transwomen have the same propensity for violence as any other man - yes, research and stats are available (I'll try and link the Break it down for me thread).

One of the problems with threads like this is that the OP is seeking to harvest negative comments by women about transwomen. So we are forced to use language that doesn't clearly represent what we are trying to say (MNHQ have additional rules here). Basically whenever you see a post like this most posters mean that we cannot tell which transwoman is a transwoman and which is a man using transwomen as an obfuscation, with malicious intent. In exactly the same way as we cannot tell a nice man from one with harm on his mind just by loooking - the very reason we have single sex services in the first place.

That 'small proportion of men' do a lot of harm, to men and women. Women have single sex provision to escape from as much of that as is practical. One man in ten, a hundred, a thousand, a million?

Stick around. Ask more questions. You'll get a range of answers

I say that TWAW is damaging to many people and the first people to suffer are trans people, it silences those like Debbie Hayton who has as much right to be heard as anyone else.

It can also seriously compromise the heal care they receive eg being called for prostate exams when they don't have a prostate.

I have a medical background and we did have some trans patients but for the purpose of lung function tests you have to set the equipment to sex not gender.

The TWAW mantra also impacts TW and TM negatively in healthcare is the HCP cannot / is too embarrassed to ask questions to take a full medical history. You may think that asking a teen about puberty blockers for a broken arm is irrelevant but it can have an impact on treatment and usually the patient knows more about their medication than an A and E doctor.

Yes the question should be how do you explain to the millions of women that they are not entitled to the privacy of single sex spaces when they are vulnerable.

@andyoldlabour

Shizuku, it is not possible for me to accept something which I do not believe in. I don't believe in the Tooth Fairy or Father Christmas. I don't believe that humans can change sex. I am quite happy for others to believe in things which I do not believe in, as long as they do not try to coerce me into believing.

I agree entirely!

Bibidy

Only as I see that is quite a big part of many people's arguments here - eg risk of rape or assault if TW are allowed into female single sex spaces like changing rooms etc.

I also consider being compelled to share single sex spaces with two sexes to be enforced harassment.

I don't want to because it has this effect on me:

The unwanted behaviour must have the purpose or effect of violating your dignity, or creating a degrading, humiliating, hostile, intimidating or offensive environment for you.

www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/advice-and-guidance/what-harassment-and-victimisation

To be unlawful, the treatment must have happened in one of the situations that are covered by the Equality Act. For example, in the workplace or when you are receiving goods or services.

I would ask if they have ever looked at a simple diagram of male and female anatomy in a biology book and see if they can spot the differences.

There is a transwoman on a course I'm doing now, using she and clearly referring to herself as female. Are people suggesting I start referring to her as male and using "he"? And start saying things like "transwomen aren't women".

As I think that would be incredibly offensive and rude of me, personally.

While I’m not at all suggesting that the OP would do this or referring to anyone specific, some people who resent the fact that we’re allowed to discuss issues like this on Mumsnet may be scanning this thread and others like it for screenshots to post on social media.