What do you say to women who accept TWAW?

[Shizuku]

The GC claim is that accepting TWAW has detrimental effects on the lives of women who aren't trans.

So, how do you explain to the millions of women who accept TWAW that their lives have been negatively affected by that acceptance, given that as far as they can see, nothing bad happened and their lives just carried on as normal?

@Shizuku

What would you say to them about the way their lives have been negatively impacted? Because they don't seem to have noticed.

If they’re not in prison, don’t need to access a DV or homeless shelter, don’t need to go to hospital, aren’t involved in sport and don’t use lesbian dating apps then no, they might not have noticed.

Are you honestly suggesting that “I’m all right Jack” is a reasonable attitude here?

I'm on nodding terms with a local minister and I pass her in the supermarket.

If I don't tell her I don't believe in a deity, am I accepting her belief that God exists?

@Bibidy

Can I ask (I don't usually venture onto these threads) - is TW violence against bio women common?

Only as I see that is quite a big part of many people's arguments here - eg risk of rape or assault if TW are allowed into female single sex spaces like changing rooms etc.

I have to admit that side of things hasn't really crossed my mind with regards to the TWAW argument as I'd have thought that would be fairly unlikely, unless the chance to assault women is why someone is trying to appear as a TW?

It's a small proportion of men who attack women, and as such an even smaller proportion of trans women who would have that mindset, surely?

For me one of the salient points is that if you concede that bathrooms or other single sex spaces are no longer allowed to be single sex spaces then any man is entitled to access it. There is no sanctuary. No legal basis for you to say ‘this is a single sex space you are not permitted to be here’. Society as a whole feels less inclined to preserve that space as only for females. There will no longer be safeguarding around men accessing those spaces - after all one might be being transphobic if one said ‘hang on, you’re a man, you’re not allowed in there!’ One might be speaking to the bearded lesbian Alex Drummond... Once the principle has been ceded then women are vulnerable to attacks by ALL men who wish to exploit those spaces. It is also relevant to note that transwomen offend in the same proportion as men. But for me, my fear isn’t that I’ll get attacked by a man posing as a transwoman. My fear is that my entitlement to a single sex space has gone - and I’m now as vulnerable in that so-called single sex space as anywhere else.

@Shizuku

What would you say to them about the way their lives have been negatively impacted? Because they don't seem to have noticed.

But they won't notice until they DO notice. Until they or a loved one are put in a situation where they are forced to notice. Until they are forced to be subjected to a non biological female in their prison cell, or giving them an intimate exam, or in their changing room, or anywhere else that they would expect to be with natal women. People don't tend to care about things unless it affects them personally. And then before we know it we have no rights as a biological sex left. I didn't really care about Parkinsons disease until my Dad died from it last year, and now I read everything about the research and treatments, Because it now affects me personally.

If they’re not in prison, don’t need to access a DV or homeless shelter, don’t need to go to hospital, aren’t involved in sport and don’t use lesbian dating apps then no, they might not have noticed.

Are you honestly suggesting that “I’m all right Jack” is a reasonable attitude here?

Well said, Empress.

"What would you say to them about the way their lives have been negatively impacted? Because they don't seem to have noticed."

I would say that if they are lucky enough for it not to matter, then they do not get to give consent on behalf of people to whom it does matter. I doubt these women are in prison, a refuge, a religious minority... for example. I might not care about toilets, but I do care that religiously observant women have toilets they can access - I don't get to take that away on the basis that I don't care that much.

But they won't notice until they DO notice

Children being taught TWAW means that all our children are at risk of being medicated for life in pursuit of the lie that it is possible to change sex.

None of the women I know think TWAW

@StillFemale

None of the women I know think TWAW

Same here tbh.

They are, however, afraid of being scolded.

@StillFemale

None of the women I know think TWAW

Same here.

None of the men I know think TWAW either.

Over the years my feelings have been compromised by various men who assumed that their feelings were more important than mine, in changing rooms, in bra fitting rooms, in pubs, in lesbian only/ women only spaces. I would ask why other women don’t think other women’s feelings matter as much as those of men.
With friends who might seem convinced that trans people are the opposite sex, when I dig a little deeper, there are usually qualifications. Men in women’s sports is one, giving children and young people puberty blockers is another. They also usually acknowledge that women should have the right to spaces where we feel comfortable. In fact it is most often the fact of their one specific trans friend whose rights they want to defend and their identity they want to validate.

This is a real “light the blue touch paper and retire” OP.

If the OP was genuinely interested in a discussion about this, he/she would stick around to answer people’s posts, wouldn’t he/she?

Or am I being very old-fashioned?

So, how do you explain to the millions of women who accept TWAW.

If "the millions of women who accept TWAW" actually exist and genuinely believe that TWAW (which is unlikely especially after you remove the ones who are just saying it to be nice), there would be no point in explaining anything to them. In the same way it is pointless arguing about the existence of god with a christian or that the world is not flat with a flat earther.

There is a reason that it is necessary for the phrase TWAW to be repeated over and over again and that is because to most people it is completely counter-intuitive. Like a catechism, it needs to be taught and rammed home at every available opportunity with negative consequences for those who do not go along with it. This is why those advocating that TWAW are so keen to get into schools. Children can be made to believe anything. Middle aged women not so much.

Whats your point op? You sound like you have a very individualistic perspective on this.

I mean, almost like it doesn't matter if women as disadvantaged, as long as they don't notice.

So, how do you explain to the millions of women who accept TWAW that their lives have been negatively affected by that acceptance, given that as far as they can see, nothing bad happened and their lives just carried on as normal?

I tell them the truth. And hope that their critical thinking skills are up to it. Often they are when they actually start to see the bigger picture :-)

I say hello

What would you say to them about the way their lives have been negatively impacted? Because they don't seem to have noticed.

Gosh are you saying that it's ok then as long as they haven't noticed. That's quite sneaky and not very nice.

What do I say to those who assert TWAW? I ask if they remember the old nursery rhyme I used long ago to recite to my children as did my grandmother to me:

“If wishes were horses, beggars would ride:
If turnips were watches, I’d wear one by my side.
And if if’s and an’s were pots and pans,
The tinker would never work!

– Because, of course, as grown-ups, we know, sadly, wishes are not horses; turnips are not watches; TW are … (completion left as exercise for the reader).

Oh for goodness sake

weebisom was just saying what women she knows say....and it’s exactly what a lot of people who dont know a lot about the subject think

@StillFemale

None of the women I know think TWAW

HarrietHardy

Same here tbh.

They are, however, afraid of being scolded

Very true Harriet.

Some of the women I know work in a space where the TW are feted by the other males who can appear oh so progressive whilst still being (not so) secretly misogynistic. The women, including myself, keep quiet about their lack of belief in gender ideology in the work environment to avoid male aggression.

The funny thing about my deletion (can't have people knowing what my friend's think!) is that my friend's views on trans women and gender were THE accepted theory about trans gender identities a few years ago, and is still the accepted model in the case of trans children.

@WeeBisom

The funny thing about my deletion (can't have people knowing what my friend's think!) is that my friend's views on trans women and gender were THE accepted theory about trans gender identities a few years ago, and is still the accepted model in the case of trans children.

Its fucking ridiculous