What do you say to women who accept TWAW?

[Shizuku]

The GC claim is that accepting TWAW has detrimental effects on the lives of women who aren't trans.

So, how do you explain to the millions of women who accept TWAW that their lives have been negatively affected by that acceptance, given that as far as they can see, nothing bad happened and their lives just carried on as normal?

Surely you mean 'believe' or 'think the meaning of words should be changed'?

I ask if their mum, aunt, sister or friend was raped or sexually assaulted should they be able to have a female counselor or recover in a space with only biological women. If they say yes I then say that is what the TWAW activists are actively removing.

If they say no, I ask why they think validating trans identities is more important than helping women who have been raped.

It turns out most women think there needs to be a distinction between women and trans women.

Shizuku, it is not possible for me to accept something which I do not believe in. I don't believe in the Tooth Fairy or Father Christmas. I don't believe that humans can change sex.
I am quite happy for others to believe in things which I do not believe in, as long as they do not try to coerce me into believing.

People believe in religion. Generally they don’t insist that I do too.

So how do you explain to millions of women

I don't explain anything to millions of women. There are no situations in my life where I explain anything to millions of women.

I await your next thread.

Exactly that sapphos. Most of the ‘TWAW women’ that I know don’t believe TW are women the same as they are when push comes to shove. They say it to ‘be kind’ and generally they mean “TWAW but....” and then go on to say something like “they shouldn’t play in women’s sport” or “anyway no one is putting men in women’s prisons, that’s just hysteria” which would have them branded transphobic on twitter in an instant

Many women fail to appreciate the need for single sex spaces until something awful happens to them or their friends that reinforces why they're so important.
I ask women whether they think women and girls should be forced to compete against born males in sports like rugby, weightlifting, judo, football? I also ask if vulnerable women in prison should be forced to share cells with born males convicted of rape, paedophilia and other sex offences?
And I might ask whether they or their Mum should be forced to have a smear conducted by a born male if they prefer to have such intimate procedures conducted by a woman?
I don't lecture or harangue them or threaten them (as is commonly found amongst advocates of TWAW) . I respect their right to have their own belief while hoping that they will never find out the hard way why society has single sex spaces for the protection of women and girls.

I would also refer them to this rather brilliant twitter thread by the very respected Dr Jane Clare Jones which sheds some light on how the UK is being influenced - and not for the good of women sadly. Thank you OP for enabling me to showcase this:

twitter.com/janeclarejones/status/1383780129684393986

I don't explain anything to millions of women. There are no situations in my life where I explain anything to millions of women.

Quite.

I've generally found that when you point out that it means that there are women in my country in jail cells with male people, once they are convinced that is actually true, they begin to see that TWAW does not mean quite what they thought it meant, and might have implications beyond what they had thought.

Though someone young or dim enough to really only see it in terms of their own lives having noticed a difference might be a difficult nut to crack.

By “accept” do you mean “believe” or “put up with” or “have never really thought about”?

I don’t know any women who believe that men can change sex.

What do all biological women (or even just those biological women who recognise themselves as females) have in common with transwomen that we don’t also have in common with other males?

What is a woman? What is it that all women have in common that differentiates us from males? It certainly isn’t a certain (feminine) physical appearance, or any of the sexist stereotypes associated with women. The only thing women have in common is female biology. Even when developmental problems or illness or accidents mean parts of a person’s female anatomy are absent or removed, the overall picture (DNA, anatomy, physiology) is still of a person with female biology. These women certainly don’t have male biology!

Gender identity is a concept which didn’t exist until it suited a small proportion of males to force themselves into the female category. Though some women may have a female identity, it is predicated on knowledge of being female, though initially as young children we are told our sex (and also have ideas of gender norms imposed on us). Who benefits from using gender identity instead of sex? A small proportion of males. There is no wider benefit to society and it has caused a lot of upheaval. Who loses out? A much larger number of women are discomfited and there are real risks to safety in some cases. It seems to me that the push for the supremacy of gender identity is just another example of the patriarchy. In different (feminine) garb of course.

My very woke adult son had an epiphany recently; and he would say that sport is the issue where he suddenly realised that the ideology isn't right or fair. So I'd discuss sports.

I think it's a belief, and if they believe it crack on. If they try and force me to believe, or state things I don't believe in, or try and have me punished for not believing them then we have a issue.

The problem is some of us see it as a belief, and some see it as an absolute fact that should never be questioned (see what has happened to Dawkins)

I'm not going to report anyone to their employer for stating TWAW though, or organise a pile on to get them booted off social media for "hate", or take back an award from 25 years ago because I'm not a petty twat , or try and launch legal action against them, or go on the attack when someone refuses to announce their pronouns.

I also agree about the "being kind" kind of TWAW, they think Hayley from Corrie, not Barbie Kardashian; and in a position where they will never come across that sort of TW from their ivory towers, so it's an easy opinion to have that takes their heads off the chopping block, and then they don't give it another thought.

Self confessed 'be kind' advocate in the past here. Within months of eachother I fought with someone on social media who was making dismissive noises about a two spirit people (urging them to be kind) and also shared an article of how trans athletes threatened women's sports.
This was before I realised that most people who think twaw wouldn't accept me defending the concept of trans whilst wanting to protect women's sports
I imagine most people who say twaw think it's a costless kindness like I did.
Now I know that women have been abused, raped had their dignity and privacy eroded, been threatened, sacked and scolded for believing a basic biological fact most five year olds understand I'm less willing to extend kindness. Certainly not at the cost for women.
That's on you and your like, who push at boundaries and accept no compromise. Which I know is very sad because some people are just living their life and you've hijacked their cause

You're not convincing anyone.

By pushing for males in women's sports, refuges and prisons you've revealed yourself as unreasonable and out of touch with reality.

Nice one.

I would go to for the answer that it has never yet happened I have to explain to millions of women that male is not female.

I would actually say with millions of women it doesn't even register that twaw is a viewpoint people actually believe in. They are either too busy trying to stay safe, housed and fed or trying to keep their children safe, housed and fed, or they don't actually think people believe this so badly it would mean male people in womens sports or rapists in womens prisons. They actually believe society treats women with respect and dignity. Rude awaking when it turns out not to be true and twaw means women don't get any say anymore in their own protections.

how do you explain to the millions of women who accept TWAW that their lives have been negatively affected by that acceptance, given that as far as they can see, nothing bad happened and their lives just carried on as normal?

Ah yes, something can only be bad if it negatively affects me directly.
I've never been directly affected by torture or starvation so how do you explain that that's a bad thing? It's a tricky one.

Given the women I generally mix with I would ask if they would be happy for their daughter to go swimming at the local pool independently if a middle-aged pre-op (as over 95% are) transwoman followed them into the communual changing room.

Should female prisoners be forced to share cells with someone of the opposite sex ( happening already across the pond) ?

I don't. In the same way that I don't go around telling Christians that their god isn't real....

Here is JK Rowling explaining to millions of women.

www.jkrowling.com/opinions/j-k-rowling-writes-about-her-reasons-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/

Gosh OP you've got a lot of time on your hands!

@Shizuku

The GC claim is that accepting TWAW has detrimental effects on the lives of women who aren't trans.

So, how do you explain to the millions of women who accept TWAW that their lives have been negatively affected by that acceptance, given that as far as they can see, nothing bad happened and their lives just carried on as normal?

I am happy to accept TWAW, but not to the extent of changing terminology or reducing women to body parts (vagina owners etc) in order to accommodate that.

I think if trans women want to live as women then that's great...welcome! But I don't like the attempted erasure of the fact that there are some natural differences between trans women and biological women that have massively affected the lives and opportunities of bio women for hundreds of years.

Similarly for trans men, not worried about whatever they do, but let's not start using weird terms on tampons etc to try and imply that it's not only biological females who menstruate.

So my main thoughts on it are that TW are welcome to join the club, but let's not try and change the fundamental principles of what has put women where we are today.

The word pre-op throws me. Pre-op is the appointment you have before an operation. If you have no plans for an operation, you aren't pre-op. But un-op doesn't roll off the tongue.

With absolutely no evidence to prove that transwomen are any less dangerous to women than any other males , should women be expected to share dormitories, showers, refuges with members of the opposite sex if said people identify as women?

The GC claim is that accepting TWAW has detrimental effects on the lives of women who aren't trans. Actually the claim is that TWAW harms both women and trans people alike. That gender remains an invidious curse. That hman beings cannot change sex. That people should feel free to be who they are without feelings of shame for not meeting some outdated toxic stereotypes.