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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Well, that's us told

358 replies

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 13/04/2021 20:14

lux-magazine.com/article/the-road-to-terfdom/

This is an article about Mumsnet FWR boards. Author doesn't like us. Oh dear.

OP posts:
R0wantrees · 15/04/2021 11:23

Previous thread OP BloodyFreezing wrote Sat 24-Mar-18:

"The Deptford People Project and the impact of self-ID and transactivism on working class women
Interesting interview with Lucy McDonagh, co-founder of the Deptford People Project in this article:

www.feministcurrent.com/2018/03/23/leftist-women-uk-refuse-accept-labours-attempts-silence-critiques-gender-identity/ "

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3203804-The-Deptford-People-Project-and-the-impact-of-self-ID-and-transactivism-on-working-class-women

Feminist Current article by Meghan Murphy linked above:
(extract)
"Lucy Mcdonagh grew up working class, raised by a single mother. Her life as a young woman was marked by addiction, abuse, poverty, and mental health issues. She managed to escape a relationship with an extremely violent man at 32-years-old, after being partnered with him for 10 years. “My experience of being a working class woman and the level of trauma carried by many working class people has been my driving force since I was young,” Mcdonagh told me.

“All I have ever wanted to do is to try and empower working class people into supporting ourselves and, in doing so, empower our community. Being working class isn’t just about poverty. It’s about resilience and an unspoken understanding of violence. We don’t talk about our struggles because that places us at greater harm.” (continues)

"She tells me there is “a very real lack of understanding about female victims of abuse, their need for sex-segregated spaces, and their need to be protected from predatory men.” But it has become impossible to debate or even discuss these issues. “Suddenly (mainly) white middle class students were shouting down and abusing working class women for expressing concern,” she says. “These people were bullying real victims into [submitting to] their ideology — women who have spent their lives being forced to accept situations they don’t want.”

Mcdonagh says she doesn’t believe that “a rich white boy” can “understand the needs of a working class ex-care system woman, raped and abused for decades by many different men — a woman living in a world that won’t ever feel safe again and who is bringing up children in a community that is suffering [due to] poverty, abuse, and trauma.”

“I couldn’t sit back a watch this final episode of ‘Gentrification Deptford’ invade the only thing that working class women have left: their experience.”

Mcdonagh and her group were concerned about how the proposed changes might affect services for women like her and those she worked with. Yet the questions they have are not being answered. They worry about how they will be able protect the women they work with from males who need only self-identify as female in order to access women’s spaces and about whether or not a “small, unfunded, grassroots organization [will be able to] challenge the law for the greater good if needed.” They also want to know whether challenging such a law could jeopardize their access to funding in future.

“Working class women know the lengths that abusers will go to get access to their victims,” she said. “We know this because we have lived it.”

“I fear that just the possibility that a male-bodied person [whether a client or staff member] could access a women-only service would be enough for, for example, our Muslim women’s community to avoid those spaces,” Mcdonagh says. “We are still trying to access hard to reach women and this would definitely make it more difficult.” (continues)

R0wantrees · 15/04/2021 11:25

**

Watch out for accusations of crop withering!

RoyalCorgi · 15/04/2021 11:26

The statement by The Depford People Project is excellent, and says it all.

The irony of dismissing women with concerns as privileged, middle-class etc is that it is the most underprivileged and vulnerable women who stand to suffer most as a result of self-ID. In other words, women in prison (overwhelmingly black and poor), women fleeing to domestic abuse centres, women seeking help from rape crisis centres, teenage girls in the US desperate for a sports scholarship to go to university (again predominantly black and not well off), Muslim teenagers who will give up sport rather than share a changing room with a member of the opposite sex.

So the young woman who wrote this article is standing up for the right of privileged white men to stamp all over the rights of vulnerable women. And congratulating herself on how progressive she is.

DialSquare · 15/04/2021 11:33

So the young woman who wrote this article is standing up for the right of privileged white men to stamp all over the rights of vulnerable women. And congratulating herself on how progressive she is.

This sums it up perfectly. This also applies to some of the regular visitors to this board.

Datun · 15/04/2021 11:35

@R0wantrees

**

Watch out for accusations of crop withering!

Datun · 15/04/2021 11:36

So the young woman who wrote this article is standing up for the right of privileged white men to stamp all over the rights of vulnerable women. And congratulating herself on how progressive she is.

Nailed it.

RabbitOfCaerbannog · 15/04/2021 11:36

Consider the female prisoner having to go to court to explain why she doesn't want to be forced to share with males.

Thanks for your posts yourhairiswinterfire, Datun & R0. A social experiment is being conducted on disenfranchised and marginalised women without their consent.

NotTerfNorCis · 15/04/2021 11:57

All that has changed is privileged students have adopted a set of gender identities that allow them to be considered marginalised.

The people we encountered were far from marginalised. In fact they were highly educated, openly classist and aggressive.

That's it in a nutshell. Genderism is a way for privileged people to identify as 'oppressed'.

yourhairiswinterfire · 15/04/2021 12:02

@RabbitOfCaerbannog

Consider the female prisoner having to go to court to explain why she doesn't want to be forced to share with males.

Thanks for your posts yourhairiswinterfire, Datun & R0. A social experiment is being conducted on disenfranchised and marginalised women without their consent.

I feel like I should say, I hope my post didn't come across like I feel I have it worse than homeless women, prisoners, women relying on shelters. (I'm so clumsy when trying to express myself Blush )

I just meant to point out that I'm none of the things we're always accused of being: middle class, middle aged, privileged, ''just mums'' etc, but my input still isn't acceptable to our critics either.

So it seems the only people ''allowed'' an opinion are those homeless women, prisoners, the women relying on shelters...but they don't have a voice and are relying on the people who do.

That's why I adore JK Rowling for speaking up. She didn't need to, she could have ignored it and avoided the horrific abuse she received. Like she said, she's never likely to be sent to prison, to need to flee to a shelter. But the women who are have no way of being heard and are easily dismissed, which is one of the reasons JKR used her platform to speak out.

It doesn't matter what class we are or what our backgrounds are, we're women coming together to support women. That's all I'm here for.

Datun · 15/04/2021 12:06

I feel like I should say, I hope my post didn't come across like I feel I have it worse than homeless women, prisoners, women relying on shelters. (I'm so clumsy when trying to express myself blush )

Not at all! You were just disproving the author's entire premise.

Flowers
RabbitOfCaerbannog · 15/04/2021 12:07

I feel like I should say, I hope my post didn't come across like I feel I have it worse than homeless women, prisoners, women relying on shelters. (I'm so clumsy when trying to express myself )

Not at all, just a reminder that we're not one homogeneous group of women. Gender ideology is rejected by a diverse range of women.

yourhairiswinterfire · 15/04/2021 12:09

Phew Grin

Thanks Datun and Rabbit

EmpressWitchDoesntBurn · 15/04/2021 12:11

But its bizarrely touted as a win for LGBTQ...how exactly this is a win for lesbians or bisexual women?

Except that LGBTQ has nothing to do with lesbians or bisexual women... it just retains the letters to pretend it does.

R0wantrees · 15/04/2021 12:22

A social experiment is being conducted on disenfranchised and marginalised women without their consent.

STILLTish article, September 2019:

'Ministry of Justice: Updated Policy on caring for Transgender Prisoners.'

(extract)
"The policy exposes how far the, legally protected, characteristic of sex has been eroded, by allowing anyone, regardless of biology, to declare they are a woman. The prison system is illustrative of just how far Gender Identity ideology is embedded within our legislature and enshrined in public policy.

Below is a quote 👇 from James Morton, of the Scottish Trans Alliance, which shows that Female prisoners are the subjects of a dangerous laboratory experiment. James is listed as an author of the Scottish Prisons Policy which deals with Transgender Prisoners. As James is a lobbyist for Trans Rights there is only one group at the forefront of the policy. Spoiler. Its not Women.

‘We strategized – we strategized – that by working intensively with the Scottish Prison Service to support them to include trans women as women on a self-declaration basis within very challenging circumstances, we would be able to ensure that all other public services should be able to do likewise’.

The above quote is illustrative of a complete disregard for the female prison population; one of the most vulnerable groups in our society. Domestic violence refuges, rape crisis centres and female prisons do seem to figure prominently in the targeted locations. Captive females are being targeted for this new branch of Men’s rights activism." (continues)
gendercriticalwoman.wordpress.com/2019/09/19/ministry-of-justice-new-policy-on-caring-for-transgender-prisoners/

Relevant thread:
thread [[www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3829786-James-Morton-scottish-trans-alliance-quote]]

R0wantrees · 15/04/2021 12:23

Apologies for scrambling link above:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3829786-James-Morton-scottish-trans-alliance-quote

PrawnofthePatriarchy · 15/04/2021 12:40

PMK

alkanet · 15/04/2021 12:49

Datun, RO

Oh my giddy aunt! Those articles & links. (Scrapes chin off floor, stuffs eyes back in sockets.)
It is totally a class thing, those students were pulling a Pulp, Common People.

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 15/04/2021 12:53

@alkanet

Datun, RO

Oh my giddy aunt! Those articles & links. (Scrapes chin off floor, stuffs eyes back in sockets.)
It is totally a class thing, those students were pulling a Pulp, Common People.

Everyone has that reaction to the Deptford experience - it's so common and that doesn't undermine the cynicism and wretchedness of the imposition from those on-the-make and exploiting-people-to-their-own-end power seekers.
SirVixofVixHall · 15/04/2021 13:05

I love the smell of crops withering in the morning.
I have been out sowing foxgloves Smile .

I have never forgotten that Deptford piece. It articulated so well what he had all been talking about here, and shines a stream of light on the vacuous, spoiled indulgence of journo pieces like the one under discussion here.

SirVixofVixHall · 15/04/2021 13:20

*We not he.

Datun · 15/04/2021 13:50

@SirVixofVixHall

I love the smell of crops withering in the morning. I have been out sowing foxgloves Smile .

I have never forgotten that Deptford piece. It articulated so well what he had all been talking about here, and shines a stream of light on the vacuous, spoiled indulgence of journo pieces like the one under discussion here.

Exactly. One of the reasons it's so powerful is the veracity is transparently genuine. Anyone with even the smallest life experience, knows it's horribly true.
Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/04/2021 13:52

I have never forgotten that Deptford piece. It articulated so well what he had all been talking about here, and shines a stream of light on the vacuous, spoiled indulgence of journo pieces like the one under discussion here.

It really does.

User135644 · 15/04/2021 16:36

Is it me or is their witchhunt against MN right now?

RabbitOfCaerbannog · 15/04/2021 16:39

Seems to be a flare up, but there's been pretty consistent monitoring and griping in other places for some time. Hence the Bunbury thread being established in the first place.

R0wantrees · 15/04/2021 16:56

So the young woman who wrote this article is standing up for the right of privileged white men to stamp all over the rights of vulnerable women. And congratulating herself on how progressive she is

For many women (myself included) spending time on FWR in recent years raised consciousness of the specific patterns and dynamics of narcissistic/ coercive control. Patterns frequently demonstrated by those men determined to prevent and/or disrupt women discussing the protection of Safeguarding and their sex based rights.

Within the understanding of such patterns and dynamics is recognition of how people can be used as 'flying monkeys' in smear campaigns / abuse by proxy.

Having this awareness when I was in my twenties and thirties would
have made a radical difference to my life.

'Flying Monkeys (The Narcissist’s Tool for the Smear Campaign)'
Inner Integration

May 13, 2018
(extract)
"Flying monkeys make the narcissist feel like they’re important and special. They help the narcissist feel like they’re grandiose, like they have high status, like they’re famous or a celebrity, which is what the narcissist wants to feel. Narcissists often have a whole entourage around them just like a celebrity needs an entourage in order to feel secure about themselves.
So who can become flying monkeys?
There are two different categories of people.

The first category is the naive.
The naive are people who are just clueless. They can’t see it, they can’t fathom it, they’ve never been through anything like that, so they can’t even imagine that somebody would do such a thing to just make up all these lies about you and spread them across town. They just can’t even fathom that a human would do that or maybe the naive is also the fawning type.
This is the type of people who when faced with a fight or flight dilemma, they choose fawning instead where they just melt into into a strong, dominant personality to feel safe and they don’t realize what’s happening. You might have noticed that even you became one of these flying monkeys when you were in your naive state before you woke up, before you figured out what was going on.

The second category of people who can become flying monkeys are the toxic.
These are the people with no boundaries. They love gossip and drama, they’re addicted to that stuff. They have an integrity problem and usually they want something from the narcissist. They want status, they want flattery, they want favours. They’re getting something out of the narcissist, which is why they’re willing to do their bidding." (continues)
[[https://medium.com/@OwnYourReality/flying-monkeys-the-narcissists-tool-for-the-smear-campaign-798daf7a59c0]

resource thread: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3452784-Coercive-Control-a-need-for-better-awareness

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