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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Well, that's us told

358 replies

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 13/04/2021 20:14

lux-magazine.com/article/the-road-to-terfdom/

This is an article about Mumsnet FWR boards. Author doesn't like us. Oh dear.

OP posts:
Waitwhat23 · 15/04/2021 09:31

@younoob - wheesht is Scots, it means be quiet/ssshh.

RoyalCorgi · 15/04/2021 09:44

All the articles about Mumsnet peddle the following stereotypes:

  1. Middle-class women are ghastly.
  2. Mothers are stupid people only interested in prams, nappies and potty training.
  3. Middle-aged women are pathetic and clueless.

Then there's always a sentence expressing surprise. "I thought Mumsnet was full of ghastly, stupid, pathetic and clueless women! Imagine my horror when I realised that they have opinions about stuff."

It's amazing that you get this guff from young women who themselves are middle-class and who will one day also (probably) be mothers and (certainly) middle-aged. As prejudices go, it's utterly self-sabotaging. What you mock today, one day you will be.

Wankers.

Signalbox · 15/04/2021 09:59

Why is a woman with a view of her own dismissed as a handmaiden?

In the article Baker dismisses women with "views of their own" as bigots, TERFs and transphobes.

Woman says something I don't like!
Quick, call her a name and dismiss her opinion straight out of hand!

Datun · 15/04/2021 10:04

@RoyalCorgi

All the articles about Mumsnet peddle the following stereotypes:
  1. Middle-class women are ghastly.
  2. Mothers are stupid people only interested in prams, nappies and potty training.
  3. Middle-aged women are pathetic and clueless.

Then there's always a sentence expressing surprise. "I thought Mumsnet was full of ghastly, stupid, pathetic and clueless women! Imagine my horror when I realised that they have opinions about stuff."

It's amazing that you get this guff from young women who themselves are middle-class and who will one day also (probably) be mothers and (certainly) middle-aged. As prejudices go, it's utterly self-sabotaging. What you mock today, one day you will be.

Wankers.

😁

And don't forget privileged. I never fail to notice how calling mumsnetters privileged means we shouldn't be listened to.

So, by her logic, only unprivileged women should be taken any notice of.

Those with no voice and no platform.

Very convenient.

Gobbeldegook · 15/04/2021 10:06

Radicalised 😂😂😂😂

BernardBlackMissesLangCleg · 15/04/2021 10:10

At the risk of straying from begonias

The real fears bit jumps out and is also kind of what happens - it plays on real fears of men, real fears of "being erased"

Is talking about the fear of a child rapist escaping prison because they identify as trans playing on people’s fears? I only ask ‘cos it’s happened

How about male sex offenders being incarcerated in women’s prisons and then assaulting the women there? I only ask ‘cos it’s happened

How about men competing in women’s sports and taking places that should be taken by women? I only ask ‘cos it’s happened

How about a man assaulting a 10 year old girl while he was in the women’s toilets? I only ask ‘cos it’s happened

How about a man taking a job at a rape counseling service thereby denying access to counseling for women who feel unable to deal with a man in such circumstances? I only ask ‘cos it’s happened

I could go on but my fingers are tired and frankly it makes me sad and angry

The‘playing on people’s fears’ types never want to talk about specifics do they?

yourhairiswinterfire · 15/04/2021 10:23

So, by her logic, only unprivileged women should be taken any notice of.
Those with no voice and no platform.
Very convenient.

Exactly.

''JKR isn't allowed an opinion on women's rights because she's white and rich''.

''Middle class women aren't allowed an opinion on women's rights, because they're all white and privileged''.

''Middle aged women aren't allowed an opinion on women's rights'' (because sexism and ageism)

''Mum's aren't allowed an opinion on women's rights because''...??

If none of those women are allowed opinions, that leaves people like me...

Lower class, paid peanuts, no qualifications, no children. If I spoke out publicly I know I'd be threatened, reported, probably lose my job with absolutely nothing to fall back on and maybe even a 'hate crime' on my record to prevent me finding another job to pay me more peanuts.

Very convenient for them indeed.

GNCQ · 15/04/2021 10:25

For those unfamiliar, Begonias are brightly coloured floppers, you normally find them in a hanging basket outside your favourite countryside pub.
Maybe that's why I like them!

(And do have rather a lot in common with a badly fitting frilly blouse :))

Well, that's us told
Squiblet · 15/04/2021 10:27

Interesting article, thank you for posting

alkanet · 15/04/2021 10:30

Yes Bernard

I don't get the phrase 'plays on real fears.'

She admits there are real fears..And promptly dismisses them.???

ConfusedAdultFemale · 15/04/2021 10:33

@AfternoonToffee well obviously the middle aged women here (what constitutes middle aged?) are responsible for corrupting those of us who aren’t middle aged (assuming I’m not, not entirely sure though). But as soon as those of us who aren’t middle aged reach middle age, we become the corrupters and the younger ones become the corrupted. Essentially we’re all bad, but middle aged women are badder.

Or some shite like that. Personally I think I was corrupted by the sexual and physical violence towards me that I’ve experienced throughout my life, but those kind journalists that keep talking about things they don’t understand put me in my place. It’s definitely middle aged women that have corrupted me.

Datun · 15/04/2021 10:37

@yourhairiswinterfire

This statement, from a year or two back, is very relevant, I believe.

"Statement from Working class community workers from Deptford. We are attending the women’s meeting at the House of Commons today. We would like to offer an explanation as to why this is necessary. See below

After many years of working at grass roots within our community we have recently been made aware of an issue that directly effects the working class and women in our area.

You must understand we are not graduate activists or or women’s rights campaigners. We are community workers and our concerns regarding changes to the GRA come from a lifetime of personal experience and having worked with some of the most marginalise people in our area.

The majority of our recent projects have been working with rough sleepers, the homeless and those that have been excluded from society. The issues they face include: unsupported/ mental health illness, sexual violence and prostitution, childhood trauma and abuse...

domestic violence, poverty, ex care system issues, addiction, prison,rehab,homelessness and austerity.

The people in our community that we represent are the most likely to access/ be placed in sex segregated services.Some have and will access all of these services.

Our local political and community organisations have been infiltrated by a group of well meaning white middle class goldsmith (uni) students. These people although well intentioned have rail roaded many vital projects by introducing identity policies and intersectional thinking. They do this without truly understanding or experiencing working class issues.

Meetings we have attended for the purpose of discussing community housing projects and women’s wellness etc have been used as a platform to re educate working class people on the new academic language expected within our organisations.

As anyone from a working class back ground will tell you, these theories and ideologies rarely translate into working class communities.

The extremely small number of transsexual (I use the old term as this has a very different meaning to the university umbrella term currently thrown about) members of the community are and have always been excepted and protected by community organisations.

We are now informed that transgender people are being routinely abused (mis gendered) and should be protected above all other marginalised groups. All that has changed is privileged students have adopted a set of gender identities that allow them to be considered marginalised.

The people we encountered were far from marginalised. In fact they were highly educated, openly classist and aggressive.

This new politics doesn’t equate in our community or for the people we support. We are dealing with working class issues with severely marginalised people and the trans lobby is a gentrification of working class social and political movements. Note the difference between trans lobby and trans people who we support.

No one will discuss our concerns regarding self id. Our local Labour Party has refused to comment or debate with the working class people.

We are attending the meeting this evening as this is only place that is willing to discuss theses issues.

When we are being verbally abused and called fascists because we are concerned about the effects of policy change on marginalised people it is a direct attack on working class women and grass roots organisations.

when sharing information about this event and attempt to shut it down be aware that you are complicit in the silencing of not only women but working class people who have not afforded the privileged of a safe space or university education. Thank you x

Sophoclesthefox · 15/04/2021 10:37

Absolutely, bernard!

Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/04/2021 10:44

So, by her logic, only unprivileged women should be taken any notice of.

As a dishwasher-owning middle class white woman, why does she think anyone should listen to her?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/04/2021 10:45

All the articles about Mumsnet peddle the following stereotypes:

1. Middle-class women are ghastly.
2. Mothers are stupid people only interested in prams, nappies and potty training.
3. Middle-aged women are pathetic and clueless.

Then there's always a sentence expressing surprise. "I thought Mumsnet was full of ghastly, stupid, pathetic and clueless women! Imagine my horror when I realised that they have opinions about stuff."

It's amazing that you get this guff from young women who themselves are middle-class and who will one day also (probably) be mothers and (certainly) middle-aged. As prejudices go, it's utterly self-sabotaging. What you mock today, one day you will be.

This. Epic self own.

yourhairiswinterfire · 15/04/2021 10:51

Thanks for sharing that Datun, I haven't seen that statement before.

ArabellaScott · 15/04/2021 10:54

It's a very illuminating statement. Thanks, Datun.

SunsetBeetch · 15/04/2021 10:56

AgentCooper Flowers

alkanet · 15/04/2021 10:58

Datun
Interesting post. Do you know the outcome? Did they get any acknowledgement?

Datun · 15/04/2021 11:05

It's a tactic. To label women - white, middle-class, privileged, frothing, young mother, old mother, hysterical, fear mom gering, complacent, prudish, ranting, mean, middle aged, radical, pearl clutching - any old contradictory rubbish.

When what they actually mean is non consenting.

No.

I often think of the mumsnetter called Detroit. Who has to be homeless rather than forced to consent.

I bet she'd give her right arm to own her own dishwasher.

R0wantrees · 15/04/2021 11:10

We are now informed that transgender people are being routinely abused (mis gendered) and should be protected above all other marginalised groups. All that has changed is privileged students have adopted a set of gender identities that allow them to be considered marginalised.

The people we encountered were far from marginalised. In fact they were highly educated, openly classist and aggressive.

This new politics doesn’t equate in our community or for the people we support. We are dealing with working class issues with severely marginalised people and the trans lobby is a gentrification of working class social and political movements. Note the difference between trans lobby and trans people who we support.

The statement by The Depford People Project was made prior to The House of Commons 'We Need to Talk' meeting March 2018:
www.facebook.com/lubelluledotcom/posts/10156110925077980

This meeting in House of Commons, hosted by David Davies MP (Conservative for Monmouth not Haltemprice and Howden) was arranged by Venice Allen after TRAs lobbied Millwall FC to cancel the booking for women to meet to discuss proposed changes to GRA 2004.

SEPTEMBER 24, 2018 Feminist Current interview with Venice Allen:
(extract)
"The events’ manager stumbled on for about a week and then finally the club shut it down. I think it was Kelly Maloney [a boxing organizer previously known as Frank Maloney until he transitioned in his 60s, who attempted to strangle his wife, citing difficulties with his gender identity] — he’s a Millwall fan — who got it shut down. Maloney had been messaging me on Twitter, wanting to talk about the event, saying, “We should meet for a glass of wine.” By that point I was really determined to have a public meeting. We had loads of help with people contacting me to suggest different venues. I called the House of Commons and found out you just needed to get sponsorship from an MP in order to book a Committee Room." (continues)
www.feministcurrent.com/2018/09/24/interview-irrepressible-venice-allan-fight-changes-uk-gender-recognition-act/

Unsuccessful attempts were made to prevent the Westminster meeting and also to have David Davies MP disciplined.

Andrew Gilligan tweet, "Latest bullying transgender complaint (against David Davies MP over We Need to Talk meeting) has been swiftly rejected by parliamentary standards commissioner"

Link to doc embedded:
www.parliament.uk/documents/pcfs/not-upheld/davidtcdaviesnotupheld.pdf

(extract)
'Letter from the Commissioner to Cllr Zoë O'Connell, 23 May 2018
I wrote to you on 27 March 2018 to say that I was beginning an inquiry into your allegation of a breach of House of Commons rules by Mr David TC Davies MP. I am writing now to let you know the outcome.
I have corresponded with Mr Davies and I have consulted the Serjeant at Arms.
Having considered carefully the evidence I have obtained, I do not uphold the allegation.'
[[https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3263172-Andrew-Gilligan-Latest-bullying-transgender-complaint-swiftly-rejected-by-parliamentary-standards-committee]

In October 2018 David Davies MP revealed in TalkRadio interview that he had "been threatened with police action by a Conservative MP for holding meetings to discuss transgender concerns."
twitter.com/talkRADIO/status/1052203110335217664

Datun · 15/04/2021 11:12

@alkanet

Datun Interesting post. Do you know the outcome? Did they get any acknowledgement?
I'm trying to remember. I believe It was the HoC meeting organised by David Davis. Which raised all the issues.

It was back in the beginning when women were just starting to gather and I'm not sure there was a specific outcome, just awareness raising.

That statement though has been viewed considerably, as an instantly recognisable phenomenon.

Because working class women at the coal face aren't listened to, either.

Consider the female prisoner having to go to court to explain why she doesn't want to be forced to share with males.

The author of this piece isn't listening to anyone.

risefromyourgrave · 15/04/2021 11:13

[quote ConfusedAdultFemale]@risefromyourgrave how difficult is it to grow them indoors? I’ve so far failed at growing wild flowers and bonsai trees, though I had some gorgeous sunflowers last year (don’t advise growing these indoors. Sat on the windowsill they ended up taller than the window).[/quote]
I’m finding them ok so far, I only have one in a pot, the others are still getting their roots in water. The one in a pot seems to be doing well, it’s got sprouts and everything! I tried to take a photo to show off the leafy beauty but it just looked rubbish and would not help my begonia Rex agenda!

Wonder if the next article slagging off mumsnet will refer to ‘out of touch gardeners’ now. Hmm

Datun · 15/04/2021 11:14

Ooh R0wantrees thank you! I was hoping you'd remember.

Datun · 15/04/2021 11:17

@Datun

Ooh R0wantrees thank you! I was hoping you'd remember.
...unlike my typing