Why do we need pronouns when we have names?

[Cannotgarden]

I am admittedly not up to date with the discussion about trans issues but my work has just asked us all to add pronouns onto our email signatures. I'm confused though because most names are gendered and my understanding was that people who wished to pretend to be a different sex, change their name anyway. So why would we need the pronouns?

I also find that personally I have no time to spend worrying about my own gender. I am just 'cannotgarden' so does this mean I can have no pronouns and demand that they use my name every time instead? I really wish they'd spend more effort sorting out the huge gender pay issue we have instead

Not sure where I said only women should be punished

I never said you said “only women” but you said (just further up the page, I’m not keeping records):

I think that refusing to do it based on because I'm a woman and I don't want to is wrong

Why did you just use “woman”? Why didn’t your example also include men who might not comply with this ideology too? Why didn’t you say people? Are you implying that it’s much more likely to be women who refuse to comply? If so, why is that?

HipTightOnions, I don't know how those of us who teach littlies are meant to proceed. We've got people telling us to refer to people as cervix Havers etc.
Fine and dandy. I'm teaching people who don't realise that if they can't find their willy for a wee, it doesn't mean it's gone. Most refer to their bits as noo boo and front bottoms.
How on earth I'm meant to navigate boys/girls/inclusive language etc. whilst keeping things clear, truthful and matter of fact, I have no idea. A poster recently was suggesting vulva owners for pshe and that girls and boys was transphobic. How on earth are ks1 and 2 meant to impart the knowledge needed with all these unnecessary language barriers. I get your predicament, thankfully, it's not spread to primary enmasse yet.

Ooh I like that expression. I'm keeping that.

It's a good idea to reflect on it because you might stop assigning motives if you can realise that the extreme self consciousness young people have fades over time and therefore being "triggered" by apparent "micro aggressions" simply loses it's power over time.

Thank you Scepticaltank

I honestly don't know how I would handle the situation - probably try to avoid using any pronouns other than “you” and use the child’s name instead.

I would certainly refuse to declare “my” pronouns in my email signature. My first response would be to ask why, and what they are supposed to signify.

@HipTightOnions

Thank you Scepticaltank

I honestly don't know how I would handle the situation - probably try to avoid using any pronouns other than “you” and use the child’s name instead.

I would certainly refuse to declare “my” pronouns in my email signature. My first response would be to ask why, and what they are supposed to signify.

Okay.

But let's say you have to refer to the child to other staff or pupils.

I often try and use the name where possible, but it isn't always do able.

@Scepticaltank

Ooh I like that expression. I'm keeping that.

It's a good idea to reflect on it because you might stop assigning motives if you can realise that the extreme self consciousness young people have fades over time and therefore being "triggered" by apparent "micro aggressions" simply loses it's power over time.

Mm.

But I'm not assigning any motives.

@BuffyTheSlavishIdeologySlayer

HipTightOnions, I don't know how those of us who teach littlies are meant to proceed. We've got people telling us to refer to people as cervix Havers etc. Fine and dandy. I'm teaching people who don't realise that if they can't find their willy for a wee, it doesn't mean it's gone. Most refer to their bits as noo boo and front bottoms. How on earth I'm meant to navigate boys/girls/inclusive language etc. whilst keeping things clear, truthful and matter of fact, I have no idea. A poster recently was suggesting vulva owners for pshe and that girls and boys was transphobic. How on earth are ks1 and 2 meant to impart the knowledge needed with all these unnecessary language barriers. I get your predicament, thankfully, it's not spread to primary enmasse yet.

I have never seen that expression used in school.

Not true.

Are you primary ? I thought you said you were sec. I have way more sympathy for primary.

@NotBadConsidering

Not sure where I said only women should be punished

I never said you said “only women” but you said (just further up the page, I’m not keeping records):

I think that refusing to do it based on because I'm a woman and I don't want to is wrong

Why did you just use “woman”? Why didn’t your example also include men who might not comply with this ideology too? Why didn’t you say people? Are you implying that it’s much more likely to be women who refuse to comply? If so, why is that?

Because this is the argument we see on here. It's near enough a direct quote.

Fwiw, I'dd challenge a man the same way.

No I'm not. It's just more likely to be a woman I challenge because....it's a predominantly female site.

@BuffyTheSlavishIdeologySlayer

HipTightOnions, I don't know how those of us who teach littlies are meant to proceed. We've got people telling us to refer to people as cervix Havers etc. Fine and dandy. I'm teaching people who don't realise that if they can't find their willy for a wee, it doesn't mean it's gone. Most refer to their bits as noo boo and front bottoms. How on earth I'm meant to navigate boys/girls/inclusive language etc. whilst keeping things clear, truthful and matter of fact, I have no idea. A poster recently was suggesting vulva owners for pshe and that girls and boys was transphobic. How on earth are ks1 and 2 meant to impart the knowledge needed with all these unnecessary language barriers. I get your predicament, thankfully, it's not spread to primary enmasse yet.

This linguistic minefield is a safeguarding issue, at heart. Young children need to be able to label parts of their own body accurately and confidently so that if they are unwell or something hurts, they can say so to a parent or doctor. They also know which parts of their bodies are private. I heartily agree with your post.

As for "girls" and "boys" being "transphobic" - what a load of fucking ridiculous nonsense.

HipTight was equating the feelings of a child to her own beliefs about lying.

It’s true I would feel bad about lying but it’s not about my feelings. I was considering the right of all the children not to be lied to by people they are supposed to trust.

I am far from convinced that it is in the best interests of the particular child in question either.

I have no issue with people who can't. I have an issue with people who won't. Posters who actively said I won't becuase I don't believe in it. That's my opinion and I'm allowed it. I'm not assuming any motivations and have repeatedly said that each case is different!

And you started here saying if people won't you expect expect punishment and you want that to become increasingly onerous. So you are choosing what you believe are good and bad motivations. HipTight is bad because her values make her uncomfortable lying. Others who won't are bad because you assume they would deliberately misgender if they said they would or not.

I simply can't be bothered. I think the whole thing is a pointless drama. Is that motivation one that should be disciplined?

And yes, FWIW, I would also ask why I am having to declare my pronouns when it's blindingly obvious that my first name belongs to a female.

@Nonmaquillee

As for "girls" and "boys" being "transphobic" - what a load of fucking ridiculous nonsense.

Didn't say it was.

@Scepticaltank

I have no issue with people who can't. I have an issue with people who won't. Posters who actively said I won't becuase I don't believe in it. That's my opinion and I'm allowed it. I'm not assuming any motivations and have repeatedly said that each case is different!

And you started here saying if people won't you expect expect punishment and you want that to become increasingly onerous. So you are choosing what you believe are good and bad motivations. HipTight is bad because her values make her uncomfortable lying. Others who won't are bad because you assume they would deliberately misgender if they said they would or not.

I simply can't be bothered. I think the whole thing is a pointless drama. Is that motivation one that should be disciplined?

It's very easy to call it a pointless drama when it doesn't affect you directly.

HipTight is not bad, but her personal views being more important than that of a child is concerning yes.

@HipTightOnions

HipTight was equating the feelings of a child to her own beliefs about lying.

It’s true I would feel bad about lying but it’s not about my feelings. I was considering the right of all the children not to be lied to by people they are supposed to trust.

I am far from convinced that it is in the best interests of the particular child in question either.

But it isn't your decision to make.

But let's say you have to refer to the child to other staff...

I would call a boy “him” and a girl “her”. If a colleague thought I was wrong I would be glad to discuss it.

...or pupils

More difficult. I would use the child’s name and would not welcome a discussion about it.

But we are talking about a theoretical workplace, maybe yours, not this site. I thought we were trying to apply this in the real world, not the black and white of MN. It may be that most commonly expressed reason here, but in a real workplace you’re likely to encounter a whole range of different people of both sexes who see no need to put pronouns in their email signature. Are they all behaving unacceptably?

I’m interested to know how this would be challenged, under what rule would it be considered unacceptable, apart from your own moral objection, and if and why you think this should be enforced in real life.

Just take a step back for a second: do you honestly believe people - women or men - should be punished at work for refusing to be compelled to comply with putting pronouns in their email signature? Do you not see any authoritarianism in that at all?

I am primary. Ks1 and 2.
The poster informing us girls and boys was transphobic is in their own words, 'young adults'. I'm guessing KS3 and 4 by the content discussed. This was in another thread.

It's very easy to call it a pointless drama when it doesn't affect you directly.

The thread is about people feeling pressured to put pronouns in their email. How does that not affect me personally? I am one of the people. You are insisting that my disinterest should lead me to be disciplined.

You are already reacting to my statement of why not emotionally by invoking the importance of others feelings taking precedence over mine. They don't.

This is far more judgemental than is acceptable at work. Never going to fly.

Do you think we are going to go to an Executive Committee meeting with a list of no pronoun offenders with a report on the motivations of each miscreant for the CEO to say, Ok we need 455 disciplinary actions, start tomorrow.

Yeah right.

I'm with you, HipTightOnions. IME the vast majority of us dislike lying to our students or modelling inaccurate language.

I'd use the name. Every time.

@HipTightOnions

But let's say you have to refer to the child to other staff...

I would call a boy “him” and a girl “her”. If a colleague thought I was wrong I would be glad to discuss it.

...or pupils

More difficult. I would use the child’s name and would not welcome a discussion about it.

It's not about thinking you're wrong.

Your professional practice would be called into question.

I don't know a single colleague who would misgender a child willingly.

@CorvusPurpureus

I'm with you, HipTightOnions. IME the vast majority of us dislike lying to our students or modelling inaccurate language.

I'd use the name. Every time.

I can only assume this is hypothetical.

@Scepticaltank

It's very easy to call it a pointless drama when it doesn't affect you directly.

The thread is about people feeling pressured to put pronouns in their email. How does that not affect me personally? I am one of the people. You are insisting that my disinterest should lead me to be disciplined.

You are already reacting to my statement of why not emotionally by invoking the importance of others feelings taking precedence over mine. They don't.

This is far more judgemental than is acceptable at work. Never going to fly.

Do you think we are going to go to an Executive Committee meeting with a list of no pronoun offenders with a report on the motivations of each miscreant for the CEO to say, Ok we need 455 disciplinary actions, start tomorrow.

Yeah right.

But here's the thing.

The reason OP is calling herself brave is because people will mumble on here but wouldn't actually do it.

The posts about someone actively misgendering someone to their face...nobody is going to do it.

Of course workplaces are judgemental! You are judged on how you look to how you speak to how you operate.

People get jobs that shouldn't and people don't get jobs that should. In the real world.