Why do we need pronouns when we have names?

[Cannotgarden]

I am admittedly not up to date with the discussion about trans issues but my work has just asked us all to add pronouns onto our email signatures. I'm confused though because most names are gendered and my understanding was that people who wished to pretend to be a different sex, change their name anyway. So why would we need the pronouns?

I also find that personally I have no time to spend worrying about my own gender. I am just 'cannotgarden' so does this mean I can have no pronouns and demand that they use my name every time instead? I really wish they'd spend more effort sorting out the huge gender pay issue we have instead

Yes, you've made that point, except you still haven't explained where I got Jonny's pronouns wrong. I used them/they, which is what the post was. Where as my mistake?

I think you possibly identified as a person who had used 'they' around the time you were identifying as a person who knew of multiple cases of people being fired for refusing to add pronouns to their email signatures. Scroll up, or use the filter?

Do you think routinely challenging your boss means they think you as brave and full of integrity?

I referred to 360 feedback, which is a thing. Maybe not in small companies. It's been around for a loooong time.
surveysparrow.com/blog/best-360-feedback-tools/

Routinely challenging comes over as aggressive? I said sensitively and intelligently. Very different.

Brave and full of integrity? No, its just having good work standards.

If you course you want to berate your boss for having different opinions to you then probably best not to, as it is rude and uncivil and people have a wide range of views in a democracy, it is fantastic.

@CorvusPurpureus

Yes, you've made that point, except you still haven't explained where I got Jonny's pronouns wrong. I used them/they, which is what the post was. Where as my mistake?

I think you possibly identified as a person who had used 'they' around the time you were identifying as a person who knew of multiple cases of people being fired for refusing to add pronouns to their email signatures. Scroll up, or use the filter?

Sorry you've lost me completely.

Don't be ridiculous, of course pronouns are instinctual.
I can see a stranger in the supermarket and get the right pronoun 99% of the time.
I can do it from a photo.
A phone call.
I can't guess a name as easily.

@NotBadConsidering

Your post at 14.30 on page 4. You wrote:

Jonny cares.

What is unprofessional, and a bit ridiculous on your behalf, is the fact you think his gender tells you anything about his bed activities.

Ahhh yes. You've got me again.

Is it three strikes and I'm out? Or do I just get a black mark?

@BuffyTheSlavishIdeologySlayer

Don't be ridiculous, of course pronouns are instinctual. I can see a stranger in the supermarket and get the right pronoun 99% of the time. I can do it from a photo. A phone call. I can't guess a name as easily.

You remember their pronouns in the same way that I can't 'guess' my colleagues name, but I remember it.

Since you seem to be very interested in my posts you will have seen that I've said several times I don't think people should be forced to do it , and , this will fry your brain, this is because of trans people who aren't comfortable with that. But Im saying that isn't equatable to women who just don't want to because, and I think it's naive to believe that that sort of attitude won't have some kind of consequences at some point even indirect.

So in the real world, you would want to know a person’s motives for not wanting to put pronouns in their email signature? How would that work in the real world rather than the black and white world of MN?

“I notice you haven’t put your pronouns in your email signature, and you have a copy of JK Rowling’s Troubled Blood on your desk. Do we have a problem here?”

It’s all very McCarthy-like.

@CorvusPurpureus

Yes, you've made that point, except you still haven't explained where I got Jonny's pronouns wrong. I used them/they, which is what the post was. Where as my mistake?

I think you possibly identified as a person who had used 'they' around the time you were identifying as a person who knew of multiple cases of people being fired for refusing to add pronouns to their email signatures. Scroll up, or use the filter?

I've caught up.

Nice try, but I was clear about being she /her when I first joined the thread.

I've already had my pounding for not writing clearly, so can we drop the cases thing? Feel free to give me another kicking if you like.

We'll, bully for you.
I still maintain people who are not rainman cannot be expected to remember pronouns at high volume.

How about as a challenge, we all state some neo pronouns and you reply instantly to us using the correct ones.

Mine can be reality/based.

@NotBadConsidering

Since you seem to be very interested in my posts you will have seen that I've said several times I don't think people should be forced to do it , and , this will fry your brain, this is because of trans people who aren't comfortable with that. But Im saying that isn't equatable to women who just don't want to because, and I think it's naive to believe that that sort of attitude won't have some kind of consequences at some point even indirect.

So in the real world, you would want to know a person’s motives for not wanting to put pronouns in their email signature? How would that work in the real world rather than the black and white world of MN?

“I notice you haven’t put your pronouns in your email signature, and you have a copy of JK Rowling’s Troubled Blood on your desk. Do we have a problem here?”

It’s all very McCarthy-like.

No.

I don't need to know anything.

But if people are actively telling me they are refusing for a particular reason ...? Are we not allowed to have an opinion?

@BuffyTheSlavishIdeologySlayer

We'll, bully for you. I still maintain people who are not rainman cannot be expected to remember pronouns at high volume.

How about as a challenge, we all state some neo pronouns and you reply instantly to us using the correct ones.

Mine can be reality/based.

I presume you don't work in a school then..

It's not high volume!

I work in a school with 400 pupils. I do cover so interact with each of them. It is a mental load.

Would you like my Qts number as well?

I think the general ethos here is we try to kick the ball, not the player, so no, you're good.

But you do see that by your own arguments, you've just walked yourself into the boss's office for a bollocking or worse, because said boss has just received an indignant complaint from Jonny that you misgendered them?

& you did it clearly quite 'instinctually', it seems.

@BuffyTheSlavishIdeologySlayer

I work in a school with 400 pupils. I do cover so interact with each of them. It is a mental load.

Would you like my Qts number as well?

Nah.

Each to their own.

You must have an unusually high volume of pupils who have different pronouns or James.

James 😂 names.

But if people are actively telling me they are refusing for a particular reason ...? Are we not allowed to have an opinion?

Sure. And if someone tells you in your school in real life that they refuse you put pronouns in their email signature because they don’t subscribe to gender beliefs, do you believe that to be a punishable offence? If so, by which means?

And my secondary peers will have 30+ students in at least 4 different classes.
I consider that high volume if the pronoun trend continues to rise.

@CorvusPurpureus

I think the general ethos here is we try to kick the ball, not the player, so no, you're good.

But you do see that by your own arguments, you've just walked yourself into the boss's office for a bollocking or worse, because said boss has just received an indignant complaint from Jonny that you misgendered them?

& you did it clearly quite 'instinctually', it seems.

Excellent.

But I misread a post on MN about someone I don't know.

That's very different to misgendering Jonny at work.

I'd also be interested to know where I said I think someone should get a row for accidental misgendering. I've been pretty consistent on that.

@BuffyTheSlavishIdeologySlayer

And my secondary peers will have 30+ students in at least 4 different classes. I consider that high volume if the pronoun trend continues to rise.

Yes.

But it isn't high volume currently. Or IME it isn't.

@NotBadConsidering

But if people are actively telling me they are refusing for a particular reason ...? Are we not allowed to have an opinion?

Sure. And if someone tells you in your school in real life that they refuse you put pronouns in their email signature because they don’t subscribe to gender beliefs, do you believe that to be a punishable offence? If so, by which means?

No.

For the millionth time, all I ever said was that they'd be naive to think this would be seen as brave and courageous by all management and would have no impact on their rep.

How outrageous of me.

Thankfully the age range I teach means changing pronouns is unlikely.
I do struggle with names though, and will call Jimmy James and James Jimmy.
I'm asking you to consider what it would be like for secondary teachers. Who DO have an increase in pupils identifying as something they're not. And will have to teach in high volumes.

@BuffyTheSlavishIdeologySlayer

Thankfully the age range I teach means changing pronouns is unlikely. I do struggle with names though, and will call Jimmy James and James Jimmy. I'm asking you to consider what it would be like for secondary teachers. Who DO have an increase in pupils identifying as something they're not. And will have to teach in high volumes.

Let the ridiculing commence about my awful views.

I am one.

I agree with you on that. I struggle with Millie and Ellie and Ella and Mia. I really do.

But, on the whole, I don't think it is impossible to remember pronouns. I think there's a difference between can't and don't want to.

No. For the millionth time, all I ever said was that they'd be naive to think this would be seen as brave and courageous by all management and would have no impact on their rep. How outrageous of me.

But you wrote:

What I disagree with is people trying to claim that not doing it because they don't agree with or believe in trans is in any way equatable or acceptable in a workplace.

So if someone in your school declared to you that they were not going to put their pronouns in their email signature because of a lack of gender belief, do you think they are behaving in an unacceptable way in the work place? Or do you just think it would be perceived by a particular type of boss as behaving in an unacceptable way?

For the millionth time, all I ever said was that they'd be naive to think this would be seen as brave and courageous by all management and would have no impact on their rep.

Which is why the sensible response, by any employee in receipt of this request, would be to politely decline without giving their personal reasons, but perhaps helpfully giving some of the general arguments upthread as to why it is a divisive & unprofessional policy.

Unless they want their pronouns in, of course, which is a different argument. Although some bosses might well see it as inappropriate - where I work, for example, our signatures have a specific format (name, job title, who to contact if urgent & I'm not available). People have been ticked off for changing the colour or the font...