Why do we need pronouns when we have names?

[Cannotgarden]

I am admittedly not up to date with the discussion about trans issues but my work has just asked us all to add pronouns onto our email signatures. I'm confused though because most names are gendered and my understanding was that people who wished to pretend to be a different sex, change their name anyway. So why would we need the pronouns?

I also find that personally I have no time to spend worrying about my own gender. I am just 'cannotgarden' so does this mean I can have no pronouns and demand that they use my name every time instead? I really wish they'd spend more effort sorting out the huge gender pay issue we have instead

But Im saying that isn't equatable to women who just don't want to because, and I think it's naive to believe that that sort of attitude won't have some kind of consequences at some point even indirect.

You have significantly damped down the rhetoric to a vague "consequences" at "some point", even "indirect" now.

So even you, an enthusiast, has had to modify your expectations when meeting people here who simply don't intend on participating in this optional activity.

So your insistence that it will become more important is not borne out by the data you are getting here, it is not a priority, it will sputter along insignificantly and peter out.

I'm sorry, but I can't see how it's easy to remember he/she/meowself etc. but names are difficult.
The beauty of pronouns is second person ones are useful when you've briefly forgotten that child's name in person. Third person to make it easier when discussing them.
By allowing swapping of pronouns and neopronouns you are essentially adding an extra name to remember, therefore making it harder not easier to use them.

@NotBadConsidering

No. For the millionth time, all I ever said was that they'd be naive to think this would be seen as brave and courageous by all management and would have no impact on their rep. How outrageous of me.

But you wrote:

What I disagree with is people trying to claim that not doing it because they don't agree with or believe in trans is in any way equatable or acceptable in a workplace.

So if someone in your school declared to you that they were not going to put their pronouns in their email signature because of a lack of gender belief, do you think they are behaving in an unacceptable way in the work place? Or do you just think it would be perceived by a particular type of boss as behaving in an unacceptable way?

Do you have what I wrote on post it notes or something I feel like I'm being interviewed here.

What about my views are so outrageous that you need to pick me apart? What have I said thats that bad?

Yes, I think they are behaving unacceptably. I also think it would be viewed badly.

I don't like the way my colleague speaks to people sometimes , and I don't know if management do, but I'm not getting out the flags for her to be sacked.

But I'm not management so it doesn't bloody matter what I think. I'm a human with an opinion like everyone else.

@Scepticaltank

But Im saying that isn't equatable to women who just don't want to because, and I think it's naive to believe that that sort of attitude won't have some kind of consequences at some point even indirect.

You have significantly damped down the rhetoric to a vague "consequences" at "some point", even "indirect" now.

So even you, an enthusiast, has had to modify your expectations when meeting people here who simply don't intend on participating in this optional activity.

So your insistence that it will become more important is not borne out by the data you are getting here, it is not a priority, it will sputter along insignificantly and peter out.

It won't Peter out. Not a chance.

Indirect was my point for all the very clever people who were pointing out you probably wouldn't be sacked for the refusal, but would affect how you're seen. IMO. Is that allowed?

I'm not an enthusiast. Nor am I modifying my expectations. Mine remain the same.

@BuffyTheSlavishIdeologySlayer

I'm sorry, but I can't see how it's easy to remember he/she/meowself etc. but names are difficult. The beauty of pronouns is second person ones are useful when you've briefly forgotten that child's name in person. Third person to make it easier when discussing them. By allowing swapping of pronouns and neopronouns you are essentially adding an extra name to remember, therefore making it harder not easier to use them.

Because there are about 5 billion possibilities for a name and not that many for a pronoun?

I don't disagree with your entirely. I think the truth is somewhere between how easy I'm making out and how hard you're making out depending on your experience.

Do you have what I wrote on post it notes or something I feel like I'm being interviewed here.

Funnily enough, I have no problem remembering what I read, something you posted, less than an hour ago .

What about my views are so outrageous that you need to pick me apart? What have I said thats that bad?

I’m not picking you apart. I am seeing the inconsistencies in your arguments and trying to make sense of them. On one hand you’re saying refusal to put pronouns in an email signature is unacceptable workplace behaviour and in another you’re saying it’s not too big a deal but people should be cautious. I am interested to know which it is in your view. And you’ve said:

Yes, I think they are behaving unacceptably. I also think it would be viewed badly.

And here we have the crux. Refusal to comply with gender ideology is unacceptable behaviour and worthy of workplace sanctioning. I think this is terrifying that this could be a thing.

Like I said earlier (I can remember what wrote too), it’s McCarthy-like.

Re: “correct” pronouns at school.

I’m a teacher too and I’m dreading being asked to call a boy “she” or a male teacher “Miss”.

What do these words signify?
What message would I be giving all the other children?

@NotBadConsidering

Do you have what I wrote on post it notes or something I feel like I'm being interviewed here.

Funnily enough, I have no problem remembering what I read, something you posted, less than an hour ago .

What about my views are so outrageous that you need to pick me apart? What have I said thats that bad?

I’m not picking you apart. I am seeing the inconsistencies in your arguments and trying to make sense of them. On one hand you’re saying refusal to put pronouns in an email signature is unacceptable workplace behaviour and in another you’re saying it’s not too big a deal but people should be cautious. I am interested to know which it is in your view. And you’ve said:

Yes, I think they are behaving unacceptably. I also think it would be viewed badly.

And here we have the crux. Refusal to comply with gender ideology is unacceptable behaviour and worthy of workplace sanctioning. I think this is terrifying that this could be a thing.

Like I said earlier (I can remember what wrote too), it’s McCarthy-like.

But there are inconsistencies in my views. Becuase it's not black and white.

I can't think of many things in life except the most extremes that we don't have mixed views on.

I've never said it's not too big a deal.

It's not about the refusing. It's the manner you conduct yourself. I think I've made that clear.

I think that refusing to do it based on because I'm a woman and I don't want to is wrong. But given I'm not their manager, it isn't up to me to provide a sanction there, is it?

I don't think it's terrifying at all.

@HipTightOnions

Re: “correct” pronouns at school.

I’m a teacher too and I’m dreading being asked to call a boy “she” or a male teacher “Miss”.

What do these words signify?
What message would I be giving all the other children?

The message that youre not transphobic, given that the direct refusal to use a pronoun to someone's face, is that.

I have pupils this applies too and I dread the day they are faced with staff who behave like this.

We'll, I have experience of remembering 400+ names + behaviour systems+ allergy information etc.
I'm telling you it's hard and I don't need pronouns chucked on top of that. If you are teaching the same children every day, perhaps using the wrong pronoun becomes instinctual, but that relies on a familiarity that won't necessarily be replicated in all schools and workplaces.

By the by, I had a parent complain on THE FIRST DAY I got their child's nickname wrong. They verbally told me, whilst I was busy, it wasn't in the register, it was a really odd one and I had 30 new names to remember. I can see similar happening with pronouns.

I also have experience of having to remember English names of Chinese pupils in the register. Easy when you have only one, less so if you work in an international school with many.
So yes, I can see non sex based pronouns causing unnecessary mental load.

I think that refusing to do it based on because I'm a woman and I don't want to is wrong

Followed by:

I don't think it's terrifying at all.

It really IS terrifying. You just expressed the view that a woman saying no based on her beliefs is wrong. Do you not see where this leads?

@BuffyTheSlavishIdeologySlayer

We'll, I have experience of remembering 400+ names + behaviour systems+ allergy information etc. I'm telling you it's hard and I don't need pronouns chucked on top of that. If you are teaching the same children every day, perhaps using the wrong pronoun becomes instinctual, but that relies on a familiarity that won't necessarily be replicated in all schools and workplaces.

By the by, I had a parent complain on THE FIRST DAY I got their child's nickname wrong. They verbally told me, whilst I was busy, it wasn't in the register, it was a really odd one and I had 30 new names to remember. I can see similar happening with pronouns.

I also have experience of having to remember English names of Chinese pupils in the register. Easy when you have only one, less so if you work in an international school with many.
So yes, I can see non sex based pronouns causing unnecessary mental load.

So do I.

It's my job.

It's all my job. Not the bits I fancy.

The message that youre not transphobic, given that the direct refusal to use a pronoun to someone's face, is that.

I would, of course, not want to hurt a vulnerable child.

Neither would I want to lie to all the children.

As I said, I am dreading this situation.

Indirect was my point for all the very clever people who were pointing out you probably wouldn't be sacked for the refusal, but would affect how you're seen. IMO. Is that allowed?

I suppose its that old adage:

"When you’re 20, you care what everyone thinks, when you’re 40 you stop caring what everyone thinks, when you’re 60, you realise no one was ever thinking about you in the first place."

The "pronouns" trend is barely on the radar. It's not going to get any higher in terms of organisation management. We can barely get through the existing agenda of critical work.

You may feel like you have been interviewed here. If you can imagine traying to hold a disciplinary meeting with any of us over email pronouns this is the level of questioning you are going to have to answer. Making unsubstantiated allegations about motives is not wise or professional.

@NotBadConsidering

I think that refusing to do it based on because I'm a woman and I don't want to is wrong

Followed by:

I don't think it's terrifying at all.

It really IS terrifying. You just expressed the view that a woman saying no based on her beliefs is wrong. Do you not see where this leads?

And here we go, the age old incomparable women can't say no routine .

Always pulled out to shut down the argument.

@HipTightOnions

The message that youre not transphobic, given that the direct refusal to use a pronoun to someone's face, is that.

I would, of course, not want to hurt a vulnerable child.

Neither would I want to lie to all the children.

As I said, I am dreading this situation.

But you would be.

It all depends whether you care more about the welfare of the child you are hurting or your beliefs on 'lying'

Incidentally if you misgender them in front of the other children....what sort of message are you sending at this point?

@Scepticaltank

Indirect was my point for all the very clever people who were pointing out you probably wouldn't be sacked for the refusal, but would affect how you're seen. IMO. Is that allowed?

I suppose its that old adage:

"When you’re 20, you care what everyone thinks, when you’re 40 you stop caring what everyone thinks, when you’re 60, you realise no one was ever thinking about you in the first place."

The "pronouns" trend is barely on the radar. It's not going to get any higher in terms of organisation management. We can barely get through the existing agenda of critical work.

You may feel like you have been interviewed here. If you can imagine traying to hold a disciplinary meeting with any of us over email pronouns this is the level of questioning you are going to have to answer. Making unsubstantiated allegations about motives is not wise or professional.

Ooh I like that expression. I'm keeping that.

But I'm not management.

Unsubstantiated?? I'm referring directly to the posters who gave their bloody reasons!! Fgs.

It all depends whether you care more about the welfare of the child you are hurting or your beliefs on 'lying'
Incidentally if you misgender them in front of the other children....what sort of message are you sending at this point?

I care about the welfare of the child and I think lying (not “lying”) to children about something so serious is a bad thing - for them and for me.

That’s the dilemma.

I work with a TW. I call them by their new name and use their requested pronouns.

I will never add pronouns to my email and lose some respect for those who do.

Actually, there's nothing in the teaching standards about using pronouns.
Respecting individuals is there. Which is what names are for. Yet most parents are understanding if I occasionally get their child's particular variant wrong. Pronouns on the other hand, are inviting victimhood and create more problems than they solve. Steamrollering people who don't use the correct ones as wrong think lacks understanding of why it happens. I actually think if this pronoun pouncing continues all that will happen is that sex based and neopronouns will fall out of use, replaced by names. Which will make things clunky, difficult and will validate noone.
Quite an own goal.

And here we go, the age old incomparable women can't say no routine. Always pulled out to shut down the argument.

I don’t know what this means. But you’ve expressed that you’re of the opinion that anyone who doesn’t agree with pronouns in their own email signature is behaving unacceptably in the workplace. You don’t think people should be compelled to do so, but to not do so out of a personal belief, particularly if they’re a woman, is behaving unacceptably.

I’m not trying to shut down any arguments, you have already decided women need punishment for wrongthink before it even happens. It’s scary.

@NotBadConsidering

And here we go, the age old incomparable women can't say no routine. Always pulled out to shut down the argument.

I don’t know what this means. But you’ve expressed that you’re of the opinion that anyone who doesn’t agree with pronouns in their own email signature is behaving unacceptably in the workplace. You don’t think people should be compelled to do so, but to not do so out of a personal belief, particularly if they’re a woman, is behaving unacceptably.

I’m not trying to shut down any arguments, you have already decided women need punishment for wrongthink before it even happens. It’s scary.

Because we know the connotations of that fair.

Yes, I think it's unacceptable.

Not sure where I said only women should be punished 🥺

@BuffyTheSlavishIdeologySlayer

Actually, there's nothing in the teaching standards about using pronouns. Respecting individuals is there. Which is what names are for. Yet most parents are understanding if I occasionally get their child's particular variant wrong. Pronouns on the other hand, are inviting victimhood and create more problems than they solve. Steamrollering people who don't use the correct ones as wrong think lacks understanding of why it happens. I actually think if this pronoun pouncing continues all that will happen is that sex based and neopronouns will fall out of use, replaced by names. Which will make things clunky, difficult and will validate noone. Quite an own goal.

Had this conversation before on here. I'm in Scotland. There is a standard directly relating to respect towards all pupils regardless of gender , sociology bla bla.

I don't think accidental misgendering is wrong. I think deliberate refusal is.

And I am referring to you presuming because they don't put pronouns in their emails you can ASSUME they would not use them for others deliberately. You are assuming HipTightOnions won't when all that was said was "dreading it".

You really are assuming across the board motives in a very prejudiced way. That's what is so ugly about the whole trend. Do it or we will assume you have bad motives and we want there to be bad consequences to your ability to earn a living. Something which no contract of employment is actually permitted to do in the UK or the USA.

@Scepticaltank

And I am referring to you presuming because they don't put pronouns in their emails you can ASSUME they would not use them for others deliberately. You are assuming HipTightOnions won't when all that was said was "dreading it".

You really are assuming across the board motives in a very prejudiced way. That's what is so ugly about the whole trend. Do it or we will assume you have bad motives and we want there to be bad consequences to your ability to earn a living. Something which no contract of employment is actually permitted to do in the UK or the USA.

No I'm not.

I wish people would read what I bloody said.

I have no issue with people who can't. I have an issue with people who won't. Posters who actively said I won't becuase I don't believe in it. That's my opinion and I'm allowed it. I'm not assuming any motivations and have repeatedly said that each case is different!

HipTight was equating the feelings of a child to her own beliefs about lying. I have an issue with that from a member of school staff.

Opinions are allowed.