Why do we need pronouns when we have names?

[Cannotgarden]

I am admittedly not up to date with the discussion about trans issues but my work has just asked us all to add pronouns onto our email signatures. I'm confused though because most names are gendered and my understanding was that people who wished to pretend to be a different sex, change their name anyway. So why would we need the pronouns?

I also find that personally I have no time to spend worrying about my own gender. I am just 'cannotgarden' so does this mean I can have no pronouns and demand that they use my name every time instead? I really wish they'd spend more effort sorting out the huge gender pay issue we have instead

My DD has decided to identify as non-binary. I have difficulty remembering to use "them" or "their" outside of their presence. My DD dresses and uses make-up in a very feminine way, which makes it extremely difficult. My DS is a trans man and I had no problems referring to him with male pronouns from when he changed his name. With my DD it's so much trickier to remember.

The reason OP is calling herself brave is because people will mumble on here but wouldn't actually do it.

The OP has not called herself brave. That's you assigning your own prejudice.

Of course workplaces are judgemental! You are judged on how you look to how you speak to how you operate.

I said this pronoun email and the associated prejudice about motivations is TOO JUDGEMENTAL for the work place.

The posts about someone actively misgendering someone to their face.

There's no need, because you don't use third person pronouns to someone's face. If you're speaking about a person in their hearing to someone else, using a third person pronoun is often considered rude ("who's "she", the cats mother?") so you can simply use their name.

@Scepticaltank

The reason OP is calling herself brave is because people will mumble on here but wouldn't actually do it.

The OP has not called herself brave. That's you assigning your own prejudice.

Of course workplaces are judgemental! You are judged on how you look to how you speak to how you operate.

I said this pronoun email and the associated prejudice about motivations is TOO JUDGEMENTAL for the work place.

Sorry I'm in two very similar threads. In the other ones she is calling herself brave for not using pronouns. I think I've done that a couple of times.

Yes, you did, and my point ws that workplaces are judgemental.

Exactly Eresh.

With a student, it might involve quite a few awkward circumlocutions, but I reckon anyone with a few months practice on FWR trying to avoid deletion could quite quickly adapt.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

The posts about someone actively misgendering someone to their face.

There's no need, because you don't use third person pronouns to someone's face. If you're speaking about a person in their hearing to someone else, using a third person pronoun is often considered rude ("who's "she", the cats mother?") so you can simply use their name.

Yes but in conversation this doesn't happen

Il give you a day to day example in my role with pupils who have been isolated. Let's use Penelope, who is a they.

Hi Boss, I'm just getting Penelope's work.
Aw okay. Where is Penelope?
Penelope is in room xyz doing work for xyz.
Why was Penelope removed?
Penelope was removed because Penelope said to Mrs X that Penelope didn't want to do Penelope's work because Penelope felt like Penelope was bla bla.

See how ridiculous that becomes?

Penelope was removed because Penelope said to Mrs X that Penelope didn't want to do Penelope's work because Penelope felt like Penelope was bla bla.

Penelope was removed for being rude to Mrs X & refusing to complete the work set. Penelope said bla bla.

See? Easy.

@CorvusPurpureus

Penelope was removed because Penelope said to Mrs X that Penelope didn't want to do Penelope's work because Penelope felt like Penelope was bla bla.

Penelope was removed for being rude to Mrs X & refusing to complete the work set. Penelope said bla bla.

See? Easy.

Doesn't work.

We have a responsibility on most occasions to report incidents word for word at the time.

One person's rude is another person's not.

Dear me, I did stir up a hornets nest! I wonder if I’ve been screen-shotted?

For the record ‘Jonny’ is not ‘Jonny’s’ real name (at least, the name on the email). I used ‘Jonny’ because it’s a unisex name: could be Jonathan or Jonquil or Joanna or...
...so, anyway, Jonny does in fact have a female name. Not that it matters so much with they/them pronouns. Maybe Jonny isn’t so convinced about this non-binary stuff after all.

Believe me, I care even less about Jonny’s choice of bed partner that I do about Jonny’s pronouns.
That’s my point: I don’t want to know, I don’t need to know, any more than I need to know Jonny’s favourite fruit or the football team Jonny may follow.
If Jonny really does care so much that it needs to be stated on every business email that Jonny sends, then I respectfully suggest that Jonny really doesn’t have a great deal of life experience.

I know, I'm a teacher.

So I'd report whatever Penelope said verbatim when that was required. As a direct quote from Penelope. Which wouldn't be at the point where I was picking up a work pack.

@Tanith

Dear me, I did stir up a hornets nest! I wonder if I’ve been screen-shotted?

For the record ‘Jonny’ is not ‘Jonny’s’ real name (at least, the name on the email). I used ‘Jonny’ because it’s a unisex name: could be Jonathan or Jonquil or Joanna or...
...so, anyway, Jonny does in fact have a female name. Not that it matters so much with they/them pronouns. Maybe Jonny isn’t so convinced about this non-binary stuff after all.

Believe me, I care even less about Jonny’s choice of bed partner that I do about Jonny’s pronouns.
That’s my point: I don’t want to know, I don’t need to know, any more than I need to know Jonny’s favourite fruit or the football team Jonny may follow.
If Jonny really does care so much that it needs to be stated on every business email that Jonny sends, then I respectfully suggest that Jonny really doesn’t have a great deal of life experience.

I don't know what screen shorted means in this context lol.

I think the point PPs were making is that people often confuse sexuality and gender.

The thing is Tanith, it's just not cool to constantly make out this is a self indulgence issue. It isn't.

@CorvusPurpureus

I know, I'm a teacher.

So I'd report whatever Penelope said verbatim when that was required. As a direct quote from Penelope. Which wouldn't be at the point where I was picking up a work pack.

Right.

So when this conversation was happening , you can see the difficulties in the above?

Nice pedantry.

Well, no.

If it was needed in the conversation, I'd replace: Penelope said bla bla, with: Penelope said 'Fuck off Mrs X you sad old trout, you're always bloody picking on me & I hate Biology anyway'

See? Still no pronouns required.

@CorvusPurpureus

Well, no.

If it was needed in the conversation, I'd replace: Penelope said bla bla, with: Penelope said 'Fuck off Mrs X you sad old trout, you're always bloody picking on me & I hate Biology anyway'

See? Still no pronouns required.

Old trout

I don't think you're being entirely transparent in pretending that using the name constantly is a natural language.

Yes, you did, and my point ws that workplaces are judgemental.

There are extremely strict limits on what judgements can be used in a disciplinary.

There are very limited judgements that can be used in performance assessment.

Individuals can be as judgemental as they like, but they can't successfully demand legal or disciplinary action over everything that comes to mind or offends them.

What you are promoting is prejudice against people that have perfectly reasonable opinions and for people to be made anxious and stressed that their employer will retaliate, even though you could not actually provide evidence of the case law you insisted was there, nor are there mandatory workplace policies or contracts of employment that demand pronouns in bio.

This is scaremongering.

@Scepticaltank

Yes, you did, and my point ws that workplaces are judgemental.

There are extremely strict limits on what judgements can be used in a disciplinary.

There are very limited judgements that can be used in performance assessment.

Individuals can be as judgemental as they like, but they can't successfully demand legal or disciplinary action over everything that comes to mind or offends them.

What you are promoting is prejudice against people that have perfectly reasonable opinions and for people to be made anxious and stressed that their employer will retaliate, even though you could not actually provide evidence of the case law you insisted was there, nor are there mandatory workplace policies or contracts of employment that demand pronouns in bio.

This is scaremongering.

Nope, nope and no again.

I don't think you're being entirely transparent in pretending that using the name constantly is a natural language.

I'm not pretending that for a minute . But it's an acquired one for anyone who posts regularly in this section of MN. Not our first rodeo, & all that.

Which is fine

But going back to earlier arguments

Is using the name all the time in conversations fair on people who have less cognitive ability and mau trip over it?

Its very clear you can't see your own prejudice. But that is ok because you can't impose it on others easily or for long.

@Scepticaltank

Its very clear you can't see your own prejudice. But that is ok because you can't impose it on others easily or for long.

Who am I prejudiced against?

You have already told us who. It is why you came here, to explain your prejudice.

@Scepticaltank

You have already told us who. It is why you came here, to explain your prejudice.

Brilliant, but you haven't answered my question.

Like I said, your can't see your own prejudice. It's because you have a feeling of moral certainty. This certainty impels you to judge others by the rules which you feel should be universally adhered to and those you judge wrong should be disciplined.

@Scepticaltank

Like I said, your can't see your own prejudice. It's because you have a feeling of moral certainty. This certainty impels you to judge others by the rules which you feel should be universally adhered to and those you judge wrong should be disciplined.

Strange. I've asked you twice who I'm prejudiced against but you can't answer me.

You tell us. Go back through the thread. Who have you made values judgements about?